At one time one of the best thing in the RPG world was picking up a new game book in the hope that it will offer something cool mechanically.

Not Setting and Fluff, those are are easy. I can make up my own without limit and end, and steal with wild abandon from the best fantasy/sci-fi creators the world has to offer (I just can't publish it, but that's not a big deal).

Game Mechanics on the other hand have generally be produced by hacks since the end of the SPI era and the joy of seeing a new game has for the last 32 years turned to disappointment after opening the cover. I no longer expect to see anything cool behind the covers of a new book.

It generally only takes a few minutes to determine if a system is worth while, all I need do is look for the any of the following Red Flags:

Does the game have an escalating Hit Point Mechanic? Examples: All D&D and its copies, Dark Heresy

• Does the game have dice pools, non-standard methods of reading die rolls, or doe sit swap out die types? Examples: All WoD games, Shadowrun, All versions of Deadlands
• Does the game fail Simulation of Process such as To-Hit rolls which don't actually hit things or damage rolls that don't really cause damage? Examples: All versions of D&D, Dark Heresy
• Does the game use Fate Point, Hero Points, Bennys and the like to balance an otherwise unbalanced system? Examples: Shadowrun, Dark Heresy, Deadlands
• Is it diceless? Examples: Amber, Theatrix
• Does it include mechanics that control or limit role-playing choices? Examples: Call of Cthulhu, Pendragon
• Does it fail to scale for the entire human (normal and heroic) range and at least near human superheroic? Examples: Call of Cthulhu, Dark Heresy
• Does it include mechanics granting a player control over elements besides the decisions of his character? Examples: Hong Kong Action Theater
• Does the game brag about 'getting out of the way' or being transparent? Examples: The Window, FUDGE
• Does the system fail to support maps and minis? Example: HERO 6th Edition
• Is the Pace of Decision too low? Examples: D&D, HERO using the published builds, Dark Heresy
• Does the game rules reward non-genre behavior? Examples: D&D, Dark Heresy, Shadowrun... really nearly all of them.
• Does the game focus on trivialities unimportant to the genre it's suppose to model. Examples: OSR Style D&D
• Is the game system uninteresting to play outside the framing of a role-playing session? Examples: Just about everything

That's just off the top of my head (examples too). I'm sure that I could add more to the list with time. Offer up your red flags, maybe you'll think of one that I'd agree with that I've blanked on for the moment.

Some games can have one of the Red Flags and still turn out well, Force on Force for example fits #2 (changing die types) but the game itself actually works. Of course it's more wargame than RPG and that causes it to make up the error in other areas.

Is it a role-playing game and/or storygame?

That's it, that's the red flag.

I only have one red flag:  Does gleichman think it's a well designed game?

Seriously, I think it's a good general rule that if you think a game sucks, it's worth checking out.

Does the game lie to you? This is kind of 12 but kind of not. If the game tells you it works one way and it actually works another, clearly the designers did not understand their own game. So how could they have made it good? They have no clue what they're doing. The greater the dissonance between how the game tells you its played and how it actually does or should be played the more pronounced this effect.

Does the game make impossible claims? Aka class x does y... and then you look and class x has no actual ability to do y. So how does that happen? It could be about anything, not just classes or not just an option within the game.

Does the game attempt to claim there are no correct or incorrect choices? Because there always are on both counts, and if the game tells you anything works that's game lying + making impossible claims + designers are clueless and more.

Does the game present few or no choices? As a player, your only impact on the world is through your character. If you have few opportunities to play, why are you there?

Does the game present large amounts of meaningless choices? Some meaningless choices are unavoidable and actually desirable. It's unlikely to ever matter if your character has blue or green eyes so pick whichever you want or neither and being able to make your character look how you want is a good thing. But not being able to make meaningful decisions, or being constantly bothered with irrelevant ones is even more annoying than no decisions at all.

Does the game contain a significant number of valid choices? If not, it's focused on a super narrow range and will get boring fast.

Does the game have a clear idea what it's supposed to do and be about? If it doesn't, if it tries to be everything it will only manage to be nothing.

Is it organized? If it isn't organized when you're reading it, it will be a clusterfuck when you play it.

Is it at least somewhat balanced out of the box? If I have to fix it myself it's in direct competition with systems I've already fixed, already started using, and already made work. I don't need more broken systems.

Quote from: Charlie Sheen;641000Does the game lie to you?

This is the big one for me, right here.

Effects-based point buy systems, or things which effectively are that in disguise.

Gleichman, you have a very narrow focus in taste. There's nothing wrong with that, but, these are not flags of bad game design, just your RPG pallet.

//Panjumanju

Quote from: daniel_ream;641012Effects-based point buy systems, or things which effectively are that in disguise.

Not a problem for me, I rather like effect based system as they are very easy to tailor to a specific need (after which they are no longer effect based).

Quote from: This Guy;640998Is it a role-playing game and/or storygame?

That's it, that's the red flag.

Falls under my point #8 using most definitions of Story Game, some however fall under #6.

Quote from: Panjumanju;641014Gleichman, you have a very narrow focus in taste.

I'd say that it's actually less narrow than either the Story Games or the OSR crowd.

Quote from: Panjumanju;641014There's nothing wrong with that, but, these are not flags of bad game design, just your RPG pallet.

We'll just disagree on that point.

Quote from: Charlie Sheen;641000Does the game lie to you?

In the past I've always assumed that the designers don't lie, but that instead they don't understand the impact of the design choices they've made.

But I think that might be rather innocent of me given how designers and fans of a system will push the lie no matter how clearly and totally it's revealed for what it is. The only question I have in such case is if the person in question is lying to themselves as well as others.

Quote from: gleichman;641018In the past I've always assumed that the designers don't lie, but that instead they don't understand the impact of the design choices they've made.

But I think that might be rather innocent of me given how designers and fans of a system will push the lie no matter how clearly and totally it's revealed for what it is. The only question I have in such case is if the person in question is lying to themselves as well as others.

Yes. As a general rule they are, and they really do think that. Mostly because they did not think - they had their preconceived notions and never bothered trying to disprove them or do anything different, or playtest at all. A designer should know the first question you ask is "What do I want my game to do?" and the second is "How do I make it do that?"

That is, if they are worth anything. As tabletop game writer salaries are non competitive with that of entry level burger flippers, you get what you pay for.

Points-based character gen. Yes, disguising your "points" as "money" counts. The concept "oh, you can create a unique character" is flawed: yes, you usually can. But to be effective, you're probably going to be better specialising somewhat... and then you're at either a template with a few details tweaked, or a class.

The maths isn't a problem, it's the fact that the process is bullshit that is a problem.

I think the OP was tongue in cheek, especially given item 14.

If not, never mind.

Quote from: Ladybird;641020Points-based character gen. Yes, disguising your "points" as "money" counts. The concept "oh, you can create a unique character" is flawed: yes, you usually can. But to be effective, you're probably going to be better specialising somewhat... and then you're at either a template with a few details tweaked, or a class.

The maths isn't a problem, it's the fact that the process is bullshit that is a problem.

Depends on the system. If you only have a few options then yes, you're going to end up with a lot of similar looking characters. Where there are a wide variety of options however, each offering its own advantages, it is quite possible to create very unique characters with point buy.

Of course then the people who don't like long skill lists start complaining, but what can you do.