Quote from: Saplatt;641022I think the OP was tongue in cheek, especially given item 14.

If not, never mind.

You sound new to the concept of Gleichmania.

Ben does not make jokes.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;640999I only have one red flag:  Does gleichman think it's a well designed game?

Seriously, I think it's a good general rule that if you think a game sucks, it's worth checking out.

In that case, it seems you should check out Dark Heresy if you haven't done it already, since i think it got the most GRFs (Gleichman Red Flags) ...

Personally, i only think i agree on #8 but that is because i don't count collective storytelling as Roleplay Gaming, or even as roleplaying.

Quote from: Ladybird;641020Points-based character gen. Yes, disguising your "points" as "money" counts. The concept "oh, you can create a unique character" is flawed: yes, you usually can. But to be effective, you're probably going to be better specialising somewhat... and then you're at either a template with a few details tweaked, or a class.

You've been playing the wrong point-based system, or if not- you were playing it wrong.

Quote from: Saplatt;641022I think the OP was tongue in cheek, especially given item 14.

If everything, item 14 is the most important and serious one on the list.

If your game mechanics in a Role-Playing Game are not interesting when played as a pure game, then there is no reason for someone to put the effort of adding role-playing on top of it. Just skip the game completely and do something else that's actually interesting.

Quote from: The Traveller;641025Depends on the system. If you only have a few options then yes, you're going to end up with a lot of similar looking characters. Where there are a wide variety of options however, each offering its own advantages, it is quite possible to create very unique characters with point buy.

Of course then the people who don't like long skill lists start complaining, but what can you do.

Yeah, I find I like point-buys. Especially with skill based systems.

My "red flags":

Target numbers. Hate em. Think its an incredibly lazy, inelegant solution for a task resolution mechanic. I can hande them if they're kept on a scale of 1-10, but other than that, no thanks a billion other games have already done it, and I didnt like it then.

Anime/Maga artwork. Its not that I have anything against that style of art, and I even own a few anime films and series. But it doesn't inspire me, and 9 time sout of 10, if its done by an American artist, its just an excuse for not learning how to draw.

Funky names for the GM (Storyteller, hollyhack Diety, etc). Or the GM's duties are redistributed among the players, and then the designer redefines the term GM to fit their game.

Character sheets that cannot fit on an index card. Clear sign of rules glut.

Nonstandard die types. Because fuck you DCC, thats why.

Its a game Gleichmann likes. Because, my god, any game that he enjoys has to be crap on a stick based on his complaints.

Quote from: gleichman;641043If everything, item 14 is the most important and serious one on the list.

If your game mechanics in a Role-Playing Game are not interesting when played as a pure game, then there is no reason for someone to put the effort of adding role-playing on top of it.

"effort"? WTH are you talking about? Since when is roleplaying effort? Its what we do for fun. the system is just there to keep the roleplaying running smoothly. That is its sole purpose.

I guess I'm just a little confused about how I'd even go about "playing" a game outside the gaming session.

Could you elaborate?

Gleichman, do you like any published games at all? I'm trying to even remember if SPI ever even published an rpg, or are you including Avalon Hill as them?

Quote from: Saplatt;641054I guess I'm just a little confused about how I'd even go about "playing" a game outside the gaming session.

Could you elaborate?

You playing in a gaming session, just not a role-playing session. Treat like any other pure game like a board game or wargame. Stock stats, simple goal, using the core rules.

Quote from: danbuter;641070Gleichman, do you like any published games at all? I'm trying to even remember if SPI ever even published an rpg, or are you including Avalon Hill as them?

I like HERO System up to and including 5th Edition with but minor changes, however I had to construct things to a different standard as the default published settings didn't suit. It was worse outside of Superheroes as they attempted to make HERO play too much like D&D.

I used to use HERO for everything that wasn't fantasy, however my players have pushing me to switch to Age of Heroes for all but superhero settings after a wildly successful test with it for a Star Wars adventure.

Quote from: gleichman;641016Falls under my point #8 using most definitions of Story Game, some however fall under #6.

I think you are perhaps hung up on "Story Game" in that phrase.  I apologize if I was unclear.

To repeat myself, if it is a role-playing game, or a story game, whether you define them as being functionally similar or drastically different styles of games, then there are design red flags.  Period.  Even the ones you like.

Quote from: This Guy;641076To repeat myself, if it is a role-playing game, or a story game, whether you define them as being functionally similar or drastically different styles of games, then there are design red flags.  Period.  Even the ones you like.

If you say so. But I find that the list I posted hits all the Story Games that I'm aware of nicely without having to worry about the details.

Quote from: gleichman;641074I like HERO System up to and including 5th Edition with but minor changes, however I had to construct things to a different standard as the default published settings didn't suit. ...

Wow.  Do we ever have different tastes in games!  I'd rather visit the dentist than try to play those again.

Quote from: Saplatt;641082Wow.  Do we ever have different tastes in games!  I'd rather visit the dentist than try to play those again.

For players, the system is actually simple and fast (as long as you don't build things to mimic D&D which sadly is the default from the publishers).

It is however rather high in work for the GM, and only those who enjoy building things to concept should attempt to pick up the game and GM it.