Ah, Alliteration.

Although I'm not going to go so far and tell people this is the wrong way to go about the hobby, I do find this trend of pre-generating all of the PCs and their "relationships" or whatever to be abhorrent. What is up with this?

What I'm talking about is "Hey, I'm setting up this game. So I have 4 characters I've already created here and they have an interwoven relationship I've already worked out.. which one will you play?"

And the characters generally already have names and completely generated personalities and who they like and who they hate and what their goals are all and all of that stuff. Everything. You may as well not even invite the players to the game, since the story is already there.

This isn't the same as simply having pre-gens available, or for something like a tournament module having pregens with a bit of backstory, that you still get to do what you like with. (I'm thinking in particular of the D&D Open and tournament modules like the Hidden Shrine of Tamoachoan).  The point of pregens that I see is to have a standardized baseline OR just to save time on character generation.

This is much, much more indepth. And this also goes to why I think personality mechanics are crap.  

Somebody explain this shit to me, or at least join in my
consternation.

Could you give me an example game that does this non-ideal way? (There are a few different things we might be talking about there.)

I've never seen that before in my life outside of a tournament.

It would be hard for me to point to two actual examples without leaving incriminating links everywhere. But I've now seen it twice in the last two weeks.

But I'm talking about the sort of thing where you have it go really indepth, and the characters are named.

Here's a fake version I made up:

"Here are the three PCs you can choose from:

"Captain Montague is a middle-aged man with dark hair and gentle personality"

"He is married to Lady Monique, who is beautiful but hated by the peasants. "

"They are served by Prelate Pontificus, who is trying to help Montague be named as the new Noble of Nobland..."

But it doesn't stop there, it will have stuff like

"And the BANG is Captain Monatgue is really a werewolf.. and the peasants are all getting devoured, so theyr'e all ready to blame the prelate and the wife. AND there's an enemy guy called Acroyear who is totally attacking the countryside!"

And then something like

"Will they achieve their own agenda before the country is destroyed?"

I read that and I think.. Well, thats pretty much the whole story. Why even play? Even the question at the end is a foregone conclusion- it's an entire plotline where you just go back and add in the dialogue.

I've seen one thing like that in a Babylon 5 module. You play the president's advisors in the wake of his assassination. I haven't read the whole thing though, so don't know if it builds to a foregone conclusion or not.

Quote from: Abyssal MawAlthough I'm not going to go so far and tell people this is the wrong way to go about the hobby, I do find this trend of pre-generating all of the PCs and their "relationships" or whatever to be abhorrent.

Well, y'know, as long as you've got an open mind about it

Quote from: Abyssal MawWhat is up with this?

I've seen this happen in con-games (obviously) but also in one-shot games where what's being pre-defined is the stuff that the players are supposed to build from.  It's a starting condition, and the goal is to see where the players go from there.

For instance, if you want to play DC Comics villains recruited by the government to solve cases that the superheroes are too squeaky clean for then it seems fine (to me) to hand peopl Harlequinn and Poison Ivy, maybe Killer Croc and Captain Boomerang.  Everyone (or at least all obsessed DC Comics Geeks) will know pretty well who those people are, and how they're likely to get along (or not get along).  The fun isn't supposed to be in working out the broad strokes, it's supposed to be in creating the details.  Yes, Poison Ivy and Harlequinn are going to be snapping at each other ... but about what (or whom)?

I guess I don't see it as "abhorrent," and therefore don't see the need for a great deal of explanation.  It's a technique, like starting the action in media res, or using flashbacks.  For some goals it won't be a useful technique.  For some goals it will.

Quote from: Abyssal MawThis isn't the same as simply having pre-gens available, or for something like a tournament module having pregens with a bit of backstory, that you still get to do what you like with. (I'm thinking in particular of the D&D Open and tournament modules like the Hidden Shrine of Tamoachoan).  The point of pregens that I see is to have a standardized baseline OR just to save time on character generation.

This is much, much more indepth. And this also goes to why I think personality mechanics are crap.

Hm.  Well, I'm not sure if the things I do are part of the problem you're complaining about here.  So, for example, I have a one-shot Truth & Justice scenario -- Bonds of Steel.  

There I have eight pregenerated PCs who are all quite detailed and are an integral part of the scenario.  It's not a linear story at all, but the PCs and their backgrounds are closely tied in to everything else that appears in the adventure.  So I'm using the PC backgrounds not as a time-saver or baseline, but to build the scenario.  However, I don't feel that having a set of characters means that the plot is pre-written.  I've run the scenario a couple times and it's turned out quite differently.  That's pretty common in convention games, in my experience, and I have fun playing in such games.

John, your (example) is kind of an example of what I was talking about.

That page in itself is just characters. Thats no biggie.

I had to read the PDF notes, and although it isn't exactly the same as what I was talking about, I am somewhat surprised- it's just one encounter! I can see the follow-on play probably gets improvised from the what happens in the one initial encounter.

And yet..

Quote from: Abyssal MawJohn, your (example) is kind of an example of what I was talking about.

That page in itself is just characters. Thats no biggie.

I had to read the PDF notes, and although it isn't exactly the same as what I was talking about, I am somewhat surprised- it's just one encounter! I can see the follow-on play probably gets improvised from the what happens in the one initial encounter.

And yet..

Well, it's a set of heroes, a set of villains, a situation (i.e. what they're all trying to do), and an initial encounter.  After that, everything depends on what the PCs do (and partly on what traits they pick as hooks within the initial encounter).  I don't prepare a sequence of scenes.  There are some ideas in my head which aren't in the draft adventure notes, but that (or the equivalent) was all that I had written for the game.  

Any feedback or suggestions you have on it would be welcome, by the way.  

But on the topic, if this isn't the sort of thing you were talking about, how does it differ?

QuoteI read that and I think.. Well, thats pretty much the whole story. Why even play? Even the question at the end is a foregone conclusion- it's an entire plotline where you just go back and add in the dialogue.

Why do you see the question at the end a foregone conclusion?

Everything before that looks to me like an entirely valid entry for a time limited one-shot or a demo of a system that works by encoding the [typically very open-ended] adventure into the characters.  Just like what John did. What was the game they were using?

Now if this was intended for a longer term ongoing game, then I would raise my eyebrow in a very Spockish way.

I think there are two possibilities here.

The first is that the GM is tired of players coming up with characters which have nothing to do with each-other, four players, four wild-eyed loner characters!

"My guy is a wizard who spent the last twenty years studying spells and never leaving his tower, not even to go out for pizza."
"My guy is a warrior whose parents were killed by bandits, his whole village in fact, since then he has done nothing but train to avenge himself."
"Mine is a ninja."
"What the f - man. Oh alright, then. How do you guys know each-other?"
Silence.

If you pre-generate then and give them connections to each-other, a common purpose, you know they'll work together. Players are usually good at creating interesting characters, but they're usually less good at creating characters who are connected to each-other.

The second possibility is that the GM is a frustrated novelist, and thinks that if they write all the characters out, things will follow a nice predetermined plot!

Quote from: JimBobOzIf you pre-generate then and give them connections to each-other, a common purpose, you know they'll work together. Players are usually good at creating interesting characters, but they're usually less good at creating characters who are connected to each-other.

That's behind the push to get the players creating characters while physically together in the same room. Talking to each other about the characters and WTF they are going to do and why. Hell I don't even care why they know each other, and certainly don't want them to tell me specifics about why! I just care about why they will hang out together in the future, because that's what I want to worry about. All I have time to worry about. What's going to happen in the game.

Screw 1000-word essay background stories. They're bastions of some of the worst fan-wankery and rationalizing you'll ever have the misfortune to see put to paper. Plus if you run improv type games those damn backgrounds cause nothing but headaches and close off possibilities. EDIT: And if you run with a predetermined setting you end up playing editor and going through altering it to fit your setting, because you sure don't want someone saying "but it says in my background that my ninja master really likes me and would lay out his life for me, so I call him up and have him go kick some booty for us."

QuoteThe second possibility is that the GM is a frustrated novelist, and thinks that if they write all the characters out, things will follow a nice predetermined plot!

Yeah, and that certainly wouldn't rate as a man-bites-dog news story.

Quote from: blakkieThat's behind the push to get the players creating characters while physically together in the same room. Talking to each other about the characters and WTF they are going to do and why.

Unfortunately, that doesn't work with all players. Sometimes they just stare at you blankly. It reminds of this thread over at SJGames, some guys complaining that in games where the GM gives a bonus to your roll if you describe the action in an interesting and entertaining way, well, what about the players who have no imagination? Oh no! RPGs require imagination! We should game with people with no imagination, just like a football team lets unfit clumsy people in! Wait, no, um...

Me, I'd just stop playing with dull people. But some people don't feel they can do that. So instead, they write everything up for the players. "Here's the script, bitches!"

Quote from: blakkieHell I don't even care why they know each other, and certainly don't want them to tell me specifics about why! I just care about why they will hang out together in the future, because that's what I want to worry about.

I'm happy to hear the specifics. As GM, I'm not there to tell my stories, I can do that alone on the computer any time. I'm there to hear the players' stories. The stories they tell about their connections to each-other are useful in a few ways.

It shows what the players are interested in, whether it's monsters, or cousins, or what. The players who say, "our guys met while one was being accosted by a giant, and each saved the other's life, and they have been buddies ever since," that's a different kind of game they're looking for than the players who say, "we're cousins, and both rivals for the affection of this one girl, who can't choose between us." Those guys are looking for different kinds of games! It's good for me as GM to know that.

Quote from: jhkimWell, it's a set of heroes, a set of villains, a situation (i.e. what they're all trying to do), and an initial encounter.  After that, everything depends on what the PCs do (and partly on what traits they pick as hooks within the initial encounter).  I don't prepare a sequence of scenes.  There are some ideas in my head which aren't in the draft adventure notes, but that (or the equivalent) was all that I had written for the game.  

Any feedback or suggestions you have on it would be welcome, by the way.  

But on the topic, if this isn't the sort of thing you were talking about, how does it differ?

I'm serposed to answer John Kim here, so gimme a second.

I can't really put my finger on it. The adventure here is very close to the kind of thing I am talking about, but this isn't as egregious an example as the ones I was looking at earlier. It's similar. It's very similar. In a way I kinda like your example, because the character descriptions stop short of giving too much direction. Some of the other examples I looked at had detailed the pregens to have.. extemely detailed writeups, including what would presumably happen in the adventure, who was having an affair with whom, etc.

I couldn't offer you any suggestions on how "I'd do it", because this is very strange territory for me.  

It's not really an adventure, is it? Would this be more of a 'scenario'?

Quote from: JimBobOzI'm happy to hear the specifics. As GM, I'm not there to tell my stories, I can do that alone on the computer any time. I'm there to hear the players' stories. The stories they tell about their connections to each-other are useful in a few ways.

Oh I love to hear specifics. During the game.  But those premade detailed background stories? Ugh. Do you like writing them? Because they are the epitome of "alone on the computer" material.
EDIT:

QuoteThe players who say, "our guys met while one was being accosted by a giant, and each saved the other's life, and they have been buddies ever since," that's a different kind of game they're looking for than the players who say, "we're cousins, and both rivals for the affection of this one girl, who can't choose between us."

Neither of which is a detailed background story. And look closely at the last, because THAT is what I'm looking for.  The first statement is about the past, shit that's happened already.  The second is about the future, conflict unresolved. Damn right that rocks! And during play we are going to discover and hear about the details. Her name, her family, what she likes, her old flame that becomes a 3rd suitor and the two PCs have to figure out whether and how they are going to put aside their differences to gank the interloper, etc.