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Author Topic: Outremer - 1650  (Read 941 times)

madunkieg

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Outremer - 1650
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2008, 12:29:23 am »
What are you thinking of doing with the Mongolian Empire (1200s) and the resulting black plague? Would the Mamluks (who helped drive out the Mongols) have different religious values, or would they still be Muslim?
Humans should have been assigned a wisdom penalty.

flyingmice

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« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2008, 01:25:15 am »
Quote from: madunkieg
What are you thinking of doing with the Mongolian Empire (1200s) and the resulting black plague? Would the Mamluks (who helped drive out the Mongols) have different religious values, or would they still be Muslim?


I'm thinking that the Mamluks, Arabs, and Franks had to cooperate to drive out the Mongols, as a common enemy. This would have made both sides aware that the other side could be trusted somewhat.

The Mamluks had been raised Muslim since 900, though they were born otherwise, as they were Circassian or Georgian Christian or Pagan KipchakTurk children, captured as slaves, and raised as warriors. They had taken over Egypt after Louis IX took Damietta in the 7th crusade, when the heirs of Saladin failed to confront the Franks. Baibars and the Mamluks won a crushing victory over the Franks, capturing Louis. There is no compelling  reason why they would take any other religion than Islam in my scenario.

I think in any case, the Arabs and Turks would make a big distinction between the old Crusader who had lived there for hundreds of years and Europeans fresh off the boat.

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beejazz

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« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2008, 03:59:14 am »
As far as I can tell, it may be better to detail what magic people believe to exist and leave rules in a chapter exclusively for the GM in case he wants to make it real. Bring in the mummies, the solomon's seals, the magic rings, flying carpets, holy grails, the true cross, the arc of the covenant, traditional Jewish golems, etc. If not in functioning mechanics, these things (some of them) should exist at least in rumors.

"Magic" does not have to directly imply the existence of "spellcasters." If you do include spellcasters... Prophets would abound, but only NPCs maddened by the whispering of the djinn, so even if you believe in their magic, there's the possibility they're just plain being lied to. For more traditional spellcasters, look to the Magi, specifically good if you want to tie it to pre-Islamic religions like Zoroastrianism, or to the Sufi (although I don't know when they got their start). Still, you tie it too closely to actual real world religion, you run the risk of losing that psychotic sorcerer archetype that just plain needs to be there if there are spellcasters at all.

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Outremer - 1650
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2008, 09:06:02 am »
Quote from: beejazz
As far as I can tell, it may be better to detail what magic people believe to exist and leave rules in a chapter exclusively for the GM in case he wants to make it real. Bring in the mummies, the solomon's seals, the magic rings, flying carpets, holy grails, the true cross, the arc of the covenant, traditional Jewish golems, etc. If not in functioning mechanics, these things (some of them) should exist at least in rumors.

"Magic" does not have to directly imply the existence of "spellcasters." If you do include spellcasters... Prophets would abound, but only NPCs maddened by the whispering of the djinn, so even if you believe in their magic, there's the possibility they're just plain being lied to. For more traditional spellcasters, look to the Magi, specifically good if you want to tie it to pre-Islamic religions like Zoroastrianism, or to the Sufi (although I don't know when they got their start). Still, you tie it too closely to actual real world religion, you run the risk of losing that psychotic sorcerer archetype that just plain needs to be there if there are spellcasters at all.

Hi beejazz!

Blood Games magic is already extraordinarily closely tied to real world religions, and Zoroastrianism is described in the core book already, along with its rituals and what they do in-game. It also has traditional sorcerers - called Esotericists in the game, because they pull from all sources. Golems are there as well.

I will leave magic in the main part of the book as Bill and yourself suggested - mainly psychological - and place the Paths of Power into a separate optional section.

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flyingmice

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« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2008, 09:09:38 am »
Quote from: David R
I forgot this was supposed to be a sourcebook for Blood Games II. Yeah, have a separate section....in other words : What Bill said.

Btw have you read Brian Stableford's The Empire of Fear ?

http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Fear-Brian-Stableford/dp/0671699458

There's a whole chunk dealing with the Crusades which should give you some ideas.

Edit: I can see some interesting possibilities with the introduction of the supernatural.  Enslaved Christian Djinn struggling with their faith under cruel masters. Sufi mystics inspired by Shelley (okay the timeline is a bit off but this is supposed to be an alt history setting, right ? :D ) create strange automatons deep in the desert...

Regards,
David R


I intend to bring in all of those themes, David! :D

I've never read The Empire of Fear, but now I'll have to read up on it! :P

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One Horse Town

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« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2008, 05:28:04 pm »
This scenario would severely curtail the spread of the Ottoman empire. No siege of Vienna? No taking over the Balkans? No taking over the Mamluks? Byzantium? Would they, in that case, have enough slaves to make their janissary armies?

BTW - If you're looking for sources on the Ottomans, Lords of the Horizon by erm...erm...i can't find it. Someone. Is good.

I also really like reference to a resitance fighter from Albania who fought the Ottomans to a standstill - where else do you read about Albania? Skanderbeg or Eskander Bey. He was an escaped jannisary who saved his homeland from the Ottoman hoards. Sorry, tangent. I like the story - even though you can't find much in the English language about him. Also, about a century too early...:o

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« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2008, 06:48:08 pm »
Quote from: One Horse Town
This scenario would severely curtail the spread of the Ottoman empire. No siege of Vienna? No taking over the Balkans? No taking over the Mamluks? Byzantium? Would they, in that case, have enough slaves to make their janissary armies?


The Ottomans would present a situation much like the Mongols, where the Franks and Arabs together could have prevented their taking over the area. That shouldn't affect their taking over southern Europe, except for slowing it down a bit. The Latins would still have weakened Byzantium enough so that it would fall. :D

Quote

BTW - If you're looking for sources on the Ottomans, Lords of the Horizon by erm...erm...i can't find it. Someone. Is good.


I'll look for it!

Quote
I also really like reference to a resitance fighter from Albania who fought the Ottomans to a standstill - where else do you read about Albania? Skanderbeg or Eskander Bey. He was an escaped jannisary who saved his homeland from the Ottoman hoards. Sorry, tangent. I like the story - even though you can't find much in the English language about him. Also, about a century too early...:o


But he would be in the backstory, neh? :D

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flyingmice

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« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2008, 04:31:37 pm »
What I am NOT going for here is a static, peaceful setting where Arabs, Christians and Jews all live in happy harmony, feasting each other on roasted goat and date wine.

What I AM going for is a dynamic setting where religion is not the ONLY factor in relations; where the states squabble amongst each other when left alone, but tend to unite - in a prickly way -  against outside aggression; where wars are small, local and limited, and not vast sweeping enterprises designed to drive the enemy into the sea; where Sheik Mustafa might fight with Count Roland against the Fatimid Sultan, where a Frank and an Arab can be closest friends, bitter enemies, or casual acquaintances in spite of their religious differences.

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David R

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« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2008, 07:44:30 pm »
Since the timeline is 1650, you may find this interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbateans

Regards,
David R

flyingmice

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« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2008, 08:05:28 pm »
Quote from: David R
Since the timeline is 1650, you may find this interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabbateans

Regards,
David R


Very cool! Thanks for the link, David! :D

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David R

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« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2008, 08:54:30 pm »
And since we are talking about Blood Games II, don't forget about the atheist aspect....Marlowe (and I'm pretty sure I'm in the correct time frame :D ) was accused of being one, right ?

Regards,
David R

flyingmice

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« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2008, 08:57:45 pm »
Quote from: David R
And since we are talking about Blood Games II, don't forget about the atheist aspect....Marlowe (and I'm pretty sure I'm in the correct time frame :D ) was accused of being one, right ?

Regards,
David R


Accused justly, IMO! A very good point, and one I won't neglect! :D

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flyingmice

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« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2010, 09:24:22 am »
I forgot about this thread entirely! I've been posting about Outremer in my Blog lately:

Outremer is a general introduction to the setting.


Outremer - A Brief Time of History
details where History changed into alt.history for Outremer.

Outremer - Ascalon, and More Setting Crap to Ignore! details one of the nations formed in Outremer, the Order State of Ascalon.

More Outremer junk - just ignore and move along... shows some maps of the setting.

Outremer Paths covers the major magical options.

Outremer Quasi-Paths and Player Options covers the more minor magical options.

I have come around to treating magic exactly as I did in OHMAS. It is what it is, and I won't work around it. It will be easy enough to drop Paths and Character Options out of chargen if you want to play this straight, without magic.

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flyingmice

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« Reply #28 on: March 09, 2010, 11:10:33 am »
Quote from: One Horse Town;212980
This scenario would severely curtail the spread of the Ottoman empire. No siege of Vienna? No taking over the Balkans? No taking over the Mamluks? Byzantium? Would they, in that case, have enough slaves to make their janissary armies?

As you can see by my new time-lines (Outremer - A Brief Time of History) and the maps (More Outremer junk - just ignore and move along...) Saladin never takes Egypt, which remains Shi'ite, which means no Mamluks, which means no Baybars, which means the Ottomans are kept busy in Anatolia, dealing with the Latins and/or Greeks in Constantinople. The Mongols were defeated by an alliance of the various Muslim and Christian Outremer states, the Ottomans, and the remnants of Baghdad's armies. I haven't decided on whether Byzantium had been conquered yet. Rhodes is a remnant of the Latin Empire of Constantinople.

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