Quote from: jibbajibbaSeriously if you enjoy games that are all about combat and action and there is no room for character investiture then maybe you ought to play Quake or Halo?

There is character investment in the video games I play...it's just that by being able to restore to a saved state, I don't have to hate it so much when my character dies.

Seriously, I'm not looking for all combat all the time, I just want to make it easier to incorporate dangerous situations without fudging and without having someone freak out when the inevitable occurs. There are a number of strategies, some of which entail making the inevitable more avoidable (so they're kind of begging the question, but that's okay). Some of them "change the subject", e.g. subsituting some other kind of "losing" for "death". Those are cool, too. But here I'm trying to see what can be done with death, real death, the big sleep, "that is an ex-PC", etc., etc.

A method on a par with bonus points for dying is to tie those bonus points into the characters themselves. 2 line background? "I was born on the streets and had nothing. I will have riches if it kills me." tell the PCs that they must include something in their background that they are willing to die for. If they die in pursuit of that, then they gain 'bonus points' for their new characters. This way, you get a wierd kind of character improvement, but through the proxy of several removed characters. This sort of swings things into the territory of dying being the point of the game though, so YMMV.

I know these suggestions won't directly help you but as ideas to deal with death...  

1.  The player continues on in some form when they die.  i.e. they become a ghost or somehow possess another body or object.  it could lend a new direction to your campaign or at least give them something to do for the session.

1b.  Related to that idea, death can be a way to introduce them to another world or even another game.  Possibilities include reincarnation or just being able to reach new areas in the new state you are in.  

In other words, you could let death change the game if you want it to.

Quote from: Elliot WilenThere is character investment in the video games I play...it's just that by being able to restore to a saved state, I don't have to hate it so much when my character dies.

What about giving your players save spots at various points in the game?

Ayup. Borderline (but who am I to say since I hinted at the idea myself) but certainly relevent to the larger topic.

A while back I suggested that people should have to toss a dollar into the pizza pot or whatever every time their character needs a "reset", or even suffer a physical penalty (e.g. being required to drink a shot of Uzzo)...maybe not really practical except in very limited application. But basically, the idea is to ensure people take death seriously even if doesn't end their ability to play their character. (In video games you get this by "punishing" the player with spent effort and the need to redo a set of demanding maneuvers.)

In the now classic rpg Bushido, characters gained both XP and Hon for their actions, Hon being a measure of honour.

You had to have both to advance, XP and Hon.

Now, the interesting bit was chargen was points based for stats, and your first starting character was given enough points to buy a precisely average member of his class, nothing more.

But, if you died, you got a portion of your Hon added to your points for buying stats for your next character.

So, you played appropriately, you valued your life less than your honour and you were mechanically rewarded for that.  Dying well meant a better character, albeit less advanced, dying poorly could mean just being less advanced with nothing to show for it.

Really quite brilliant IMO.

Legend of the Five Rings does something similar. You're still better off staying alive and spending your XP, but it takes the bite out of death if you've tried to act like the quintessential samurai should.

Wouldn't that make meaningless death even MORE of a bummer? Not only do you lose the Character and the XP, you also miss out on the bonus for your next character.

I think Blood Bowl had a good solution. Most players recover from injuries but some are crippled and a few die. The threat keeps the coaches on their toes, but the low risk keeps teams from being slaughered to a man.*

*Unless they elect "grudge match" v.s. Dwarves.

Quote from: Elliot Wilen(Not quite appropriate for the list, but worth considering nonetheless): build in game-world methods of recovering dead characters through resurrection, cloning, brain chips, etc.

Nobilis has a slightly different take on rebirth as a way of ensuring continuity in the game: instead of following a single character's fate through several lifetimes, each player potentially controls a succession of different Nobles in charge of the same Estate, which in itself is more important than any of them and must outlast them all. When a PC dies, his soul usually vanishes into the cycle of reincarnation, unless he has made other arrangements during his life or some higher entity has taken an interest in what happens to it. At the same time, the shard of divinity that grants Nobility and the power over the Estates leaves him and moves on into someone or something else, which then inherits its powers and becomes the next PC. Since the shard is guided by the will of the Imperator from which it has been splintered, it's quite possible to designate a specific heir or even a clone as its future vessel well in advance. In addition, since the shard may also carry memories from the past, it's up to the player to decide how much of a blank slate the new character really is.

Quote from: Elliot WilenBut what I'm looking for here are ways to cut down on the "oh, crap" when a character dies for pretty much no reason. And also to cut down on the tendency of players to be overprotective of characters--to not roleplay them as strongly as they might for fear of losing them. These are products of what I think of as "overinvestment in character".

I agree with you. Though I understand the importance of people investing in the PC, people should not be afraid to have them killed.

QuoteI've thought of a few tools/techniques, and I've collected a few more.

• Have chargen which is mechanically fast.
• Minimize decisionmaking during chargen (not quite the same thing); this can be accomplished through templates or ample use of randomizers.
• Don't require lots of backstory for beginning characters.
• Give players bonus points when their characters die.
• (Not quite appropriate for the list, but worth considering nonetheless): build in game-world methods of recovering dead characters through resurrection, cloning, brain chips, etc.
• Have a fairly shallow experience/development curve; losing a character you've played a long time hurts less if a beginning character isn't much less powerful. This can be combined with the "bonus points" idea.

I agree and use all of those points but the second-to-last (methods of resurrection). I would add to have some cool NPCs handy whih can be used by the players.