The idea here was to give the PCs a few places immediately at hand that are sort of perilous, but with good reasons to go there, plus a few things that don't affect them right away but that might crop up later (the fog, traders from afar). Butcher Hill itself is sort of a nomad wild west town that disintegrates during the summer months.

I'm gone and away from my computer for two weeks for job training, starting later today. I'll post more when I can, but don't think I've given up or lost interest just yet.

I'm at an internet cafe right now. I finally got around to reading Worlds and Monsters at a local bookstore during a training break. I actually quite like the cosmology, but I'm going to save some of the coolest ideas I had, since my PCs read this thread periodically.

More places to go, things to kill:

The Molten Whore - A volcano in the northern range of mountains shot through with cracks and chasms from which strange monsters emerge. The pressures of the mountain create fantastic diamonds that command high prices in the markets of Dwer Tor.

Ok, so, I've got a relatively fixed idea of the geography at this point. One of the first things I did when I started to come up with this whole thing was draw a map by hand, but I lost the map. This has actually been a good thing, since it means that I can fiddle with the geography more without feeling constrained to follow the map. I've spent some of the past week offline thinking about the landscape, and I'll draw another map by hand to represent this as soon as I have access to some 8 1/2 x 11 printer paper.

Naming:

I decided that I needed a name for the region as a whole other than "the Plains of Kadiz" since much of the surrounding territory isn't actually plains. While the plains will be the starting point, and presumably the source of much of the early action, it would be useful to have something more general for the area itself. I decided that the "Dawnlands" would be appropriate. This region is the region where the Dawnmen once flourished.

Geography:

The ocean is to the west, with a large penninsula about 350km long and 500km wide at the base where it meets the land. The penninsula is swampy and largely unexplored, with heavy precipitation and a lush climate. It is mostly temperate marsh, rainforest and swamp, and will hold monsters appropriate to those types of terrain.

About 150km inland, there are two large mountain ranges, one on either side of the base of the penninsula. The northern range curves further inland as it goes northward, with its horizontal forming the northern boundary of the Plains of Kadiz. The northern range has no name, though individual mountains do. There are a few active volcanos in the range. Its foothills extend throughout the northern plains.

Between the sea and the mountains is the Orthocracy of Kaddish.

The southern range is the Stormbreaker Mountains. It juts almost straight south. Between the sea and the mountains are lush wetlands and temperate rainforest similar to the penninsula, but better explored. This area is traversed by rivers that flow down out of the mountains. As one heads south, the weather becomes warmer, and the rainforest becomes sub-tropical.

Dwer Tor is situated on the western side of the northernmost peak of the Stormbreaker mountains. The western side is much drier, and water is only easily found along mountain streams that flow down into the lakes near the base of the mountain. There are foothills as well, but they are less extensive than off the northern range. As a brief update, Dwer Tor and the Orthocracy are now about 500km apart instead of "merely" 300km.

The Plains of Kadiz extend from the base of the penninsula east for about 1000km. Their northernmost boundary is the southern edge of the mountain range, and the southern boundary is roughly defined. As one goes south and east, the land becomes drier and more arid, becoming true desert approximately 500km south of Dwer Tor. The southern boundary between the plains and the desert is known as "the Last River". No one knows where the eastern edge of the plains ends.

The desert is unexplored and unnamed.

There are individual variations within all areas, of course - drier and wetter areas, some forests and clear patches abound. The above is meant as a general description of the areas, not a fully account.

Geology:

The Dawnlands sits on the intersection of three tectonic plates, making it a geologically active area. Two are in the sea, with their intersection at the penninsula, and the third forms the bulk of the mainland. The mountains are formed by the intersection of these plates. Earthquakes and volcanic eruptions are common. The eastern plains have many rift valleys, and precipitation causes deep lakes to form. The western plains are "true" plains and badlands, with the latter generally being hillier areas. Igneous and metamorphic rock is more common than sedimentary throughout the Dawnlands, except on the penninsula and western plains. Hot springs, sulphur vents, geysers and other geothermal phenomena are common.

Hydrology:

There are three main water systems in the Dawnlands - the Stormbreaker oceanic drainage system, the northern oceanic drainage system, and the Plains of Kadiz basin.

The Stormbreaker system is the most aqueous of the three, since storms generally move north into them first. Most of the water precipitates on the mountains as snow, melts, then drains out into the ocean. This water system, through the Little Road river and its tributaries, is connected to the penninsular system.

The northern oceanic drainage system is similar, but somewhat drier. Generally, less precipitate makes it to the mountains, but the volcanic activity causes it to melt more quickly.

Anything that makes it across the mountains becomes part of the Plains of Kadiz basin, draining into the rift valleys and forming shallow, slow-moving rivers and deep lakes that criss-cross one another. Most water comes out of the mountains through the rivers rather than as precipitate, meaning that the land is generally arid, with narrow strips around particular lakes and rivers of arable land.

Size:

The Dawnlands cover approximately 1000km of latitude, and 1350km of longitude. This makes them about the size of British Columbia and Alberta put together.

Keeping in mind the short span from Exile to current day, the 'history' of the Barreeves should be fairly detailed.  

I would imagine groups of exiles (e.g. clans...) would have stuck together for various reasons. Some would have been familial in origin, to include, say, a noble house and all their retainers, others would have been groups of convienence (all the people fleeing out the south gate on the third day of the revolt...), while not at all disbarring groups of economic interest (all the farmers from region x, whose lands were being given to the victor's supporters) or the families of a merchant and his employees.

The origin of a given clan/tribe would have some impact on the clan, even if the general template of the clan-structure remained the same. No reason to assume that farmers would still be drawn to agriculture, necessarily, but they might have the 'best horses of all the clans'.... or they might have taken up banditry earlier than more moneyed groups and are now the fiercest, dirtiest warriors on the plains... as examples of using historical origins.

Given that only a few generations have passed, a fairly detailed oral history tradition of the first years of exile would be assumed, something every member would know by heart.

I found the demographics of the Barreeves interesting (interestingly, the name would suggest to me a mix of lawyers and accountants, but....) in that 5% of the tribe are elves... and then 'mostly' women (90%?)... given a presumed matricarchal society as you suggested earlier.  If the society was more traditionaly patriarchal, the presence of a significant number of 'alien' women would suggest warbrides, but given that women 'run the show' its a serious discrepency.  My purely amatuer sensibilities suggest that those who have the power would not generally appreciate interlopers and competitors joining the clan/tribe.  If we stick with a traditional view of elves (that humans find them attractive on general principle...) then this would be even more out of place.


Let us say that male warriors traditionally led the people.  There is a great deal of competition among the men of the people to be viewed as great warriors, yes? Now, an effeminate man (elf even) shows up...

As a man he's a potential rival, thus will be viewed with some distrust. However, when he proves to be more at home cooking with the womenfolk, he ceases to be a threat and is thus tolerated (though, an interesting Scientific American article from years ago suggested that women are just as drawn to sneaky types as alpha male types, which made such behavior a great way to preserve genetic diversity and showed why we are not all genetically bred 'alpha male' types.... in other words, wimpy mccookster is getting jiggy with it while the warriors are out fighting... neither here nor there but interesting).

Lets say instead of an effeminent male, you get a strapping young 'Half Orc'. Hes stronger and tougher than the other males, can take more punishment, and can knock flat any male of the people with a single blow of his fist.

The existing warriors will band together to prevent this interloper from joining the people as a matter of self preservation. Hes an outsider, whose abilities would make him the default leader of the people.  And you don't want outsiders leading your people...





Now: Apply that logic to allowing elven women to join a tribal group that is lead by women?  Why are the elvish women not a threat?

Obviously, you laid groundwork for intermingling earlier, at least from the clan's perspective... though again, we can see how that worked in the historical model available to us (europeans learnign to survive in the new world from indiginous tribes....)....

Wow - GREAT IDEAS - both of you !

Quote from: SpikeKeeping in mind the short span from Exile to current day, the 'history' of the Barreeves should be fairly detailed.  

I would imagine groups of exiles (e.g. clans...) would have stuck together for various reasons. Some would have been familial in origin, to include, say, a noble house and all their retainers, others would have been groups of convienence (all the people fleeing out the south gate on the third day of the revolt...), while not at all disbarring groups of economic interest (all the farmers from region x, whose lands were being given to the victor's supporters) or the families of a merchant and his employees.

The origin of a given clan/tribe would have some impact on the clan, even if the general template of the clan-structure remained the same. No reason to assume that farmers would still be drawn to agriculture, necessarily, but they might have the 'best horses of all the clans'.... or they might have taken up banditry earlier than more moneyed groups and are now the fiercest, dirtiest warriors on the plains... as examples of using historical origins.

Given that only a few generations have passed, a fairly detailed oral history tradition of the first years of exile would be assumed, something every member would know by heart.

Indeed. That's a very good idea, and very much in the vein of what I wanted things to be like. My plan is to write up a short one-page summary and give it to PCs as a reference / cheat sheet for them to consult as needed.

QuoteI found the demographics of the Barreeves interesting (interestingly, the name would suggest to me a mix of lawyers and accountants, but....) in that 5% of the tribe are elves... and then 'mostly' women (90%?)... given a presumed matricarchal society as you suggested earlier.  If the society was more traditionaly patriarchal, the presence of a significant number of 'alien' women would suggest warbrides, but given that women 'run the show' its a serious discrepency.  My purely amatuer sensibilities suggest that those who have the power would not generally appreciate interlopers and competitors joining the clan/tribe.  If we stick with a traditional view of elves (that humans find them attractive on general principle...) then this would be even more out of place.

Kadiz families are matrilineal, but are commanded by a single man. The women run domestic affairs, but are excluded from exercising military power, and they are considered to be managing their sept's property rather than being autonomous economic individuals. The elves are mainly warbrides and captives, and yes, they are not particularly welcome. Nor are human warbrides for that matter.

On the other hand, elvish warbrides do outlive their human rivals and maintain their beauty much longer, meaning that an elvish woman who survives long enough can become very powerful, maintaining her wits and beauty long after her human husband has slipped into dotage. The Hill Elves and Kadiz culture have much overlap, meaning that an elvish warbride is not alone in an alien culture that hates her, but rather remains within a known context. A Kaddish warbride would probably be worse-off than a Hill Elf.

It's not the women who choose whether a man will take a warbride on a raid or not though. They can make life miserable, but there are no legal or customary mechanisms to prevent the sept-leader from treating her as one of his wives.

QuoteNow: Apply that logic to allowing elven women to join a tribal group that is lead by women?  Why are the elvish women not a threat?

Obviously, you laid groundwork for intermingling earlier, at least from the clan's perspective... though again, we can see how that worked in the historical model available to us (europeans learnign to survive in the new world from indiginous tribes....)....

Yes, the nomads are gradually completing the genocide and absorption of the Hill Elves that their ancestors began. I'd reiterate that one of my goals for the Dawnlands is to build a place in transition, rather than a stable, enduring society. The war between the Hill Elves and the Kadiz will not last for aeons, but will be decided within a few generations at most.

Quote from: SeanWow - GREAT IDEAS - both of you !

Thanks.

Though it's not always totally clear, I really do appreciate the detailed feedback Spike is giving me, as it forces me to think clearly about how the various parts of the world fit together and gives me great ideas about possible consequences of the initial choices I made.

Most matrilinial societies are run by the men (I can't say all because of the belief that ancient China used to have some sort of Matriarchal society).
The standard model is for children to be raised by their maternal uncles families or to join them upon reaching majority. The use of war-brides in this context is interesting again historically/ethnographically captured females have a lot less rights and whilst they can rise to power it is usually quite limited. Look at hareems in the Ottoman empire as a great example.

It is very uncommon for nomadic groups to survive with so many women however. Children are problematic in nomadic communities and a high number of women leads to a high number of children. A general rule for nomadic groups is that you can not posess more than you can carry. If a man has 3 wives and 6 kids he has issues becuase his wives can't carry all his stuff. You then get high population growth as well which puts pressure on nomadic groups and tends to force them to settle as pasturalists.

A game solution might be forced sterilisation of captured women. This would appease the political will of the native female population (in polygamous socieities the women who have the most children tend to adopt the top of the political hierarchy), enable the survival of the nomadic lifestyle and be a nice plot hook for the goodly priests to put a stop to or the captured females to be totally petrified of. You also then get the threat of this being used in inter-tribal conflict where the goal is the capture of women and then their ransoming or the use of them as a fertile source of women as they are 'of the people' and therefore protected against sterilisation.

Just some ideas.

It's a good idea, but I actually want rapid population growth and social instability in the nomads (and almost everywhere else for that matter). Social instability especially gives rise to adventures and is a good thing in a world with heroic PCs.

Tribal, as in pre-agricultural societies deal with overpopulation pressures all the time. Multiple children is a blessing because it means more potential sons to survive to adulthood. Then what do you do when most of your children survive instead of just a couple?

Which is why tribal societies tend to encourage inter-tribal warfare and other dangerous tasks for it's young men. The lucky/good ones live, the stupid/unlucky/unhealthy ones die. Once the population is within sustainable limits, the pressure to fight drops down.

Sterilization of women doesn't strike me as feasable or historically commonplace. First of all, its difficult, second of all, historically sterile women were viewed as worthless, much like a cripple would be. Their defining role in a male dominated culture is to produce sons and heirs. If they can't do that, their value as sexual mates is sharply diminished.  While they can serve in a variety of capacities (midwives, nannies, and what have you), no primitive culture would willing create a surplus of sterile women.

Remember too that death in childbirth is extremely commonplace in these cultures, so you need extras on hand.  A strong healthy man who isn't constantly at war might outlive half a dozen wives.

Nomadic tribes, as opposed to agricultural tribes we know (such as the arabic culture) tend to be fairly egalitarian within certain constraints.  The effort required to supress half the population and keep them under tight controls is at odds with the difficulties of daily survival.  I'm not entirely familiar with strongly matrilinial societies (though for some reason I think of Mexico...), so I'm going to speculate that it does create some powerful social pressures to respect women and their authority in matters of the hearth and home particularly.  Men may be officially in charge of the clan/tribe, may make descisions based on who to fight, who to run away from, who will go hunt bears this year... whatever, but when the wife/wives say 'we need more furs for the coming winter' the wise 'chief' strokes his beard, promises to think about it, and the next morning sends his best hunters out to bring back all the furs they can get.

On the elvish warbrides: Consider that their sons are quite probably considered the equals of the sons of the 'local' wives, and can rise to prominance within the tribes over the relatively short lifespans of humans.  As a result, eventually an elvish warbride becomes someone's mother, and grandmother... if you include even a mildly healthy respect for the wisdom of the aged....

Yeah, those 5% are likely some of the most powerful women in the tribe over a long enough span of time, even if officially they remain the 'slave of the great warchief Attuck, who died fifty seasons ago'.   Undoubtedly at least some tribes may eventually designate official status to such women just to preserve the value of their own human women... something not unlike 'vestal virgins' or what have you.  Eventually, it may be that all widows would take on the same spiritual role within the tribe, regardless of racial origin, though as the oldest members of the tribe, the elvish widows would presumably retain control over their subsect...

Of course, you are postulating that future generations of the nomads will become predominantly half elven, possibly even as a stable population.

Indeed I am

As well, the elvish widows become important brides for politically ambitious men. Marrying the widow becomes a way of merging your sept with hers, and if she's had two or three husbands previously, your new "sept" may be just about the size to become its own clan.

It's important to remember too, that the division is more political than racial amongst the Kadiz and the Hill Elves. Elves and humans are considered different breeds of the same race (like chihuahuas and mastiffs). You're Kadiz if you're a member of the clans. You're a Hill Elf if you aren't. The Hill "Elves" take human warbrides and the higher reproductive rate of humans means that they can potentially produce more children in a short period of time, making them valuable in a warrior culture with a high death rate.

I can't belived I missed the opportunity to look at from the Elvish side...


.... I blame single minded focus on the topic at hand (The Kadiz)... I'm like a laser...


Yeah, Tunnel Vision, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

All things being equal, I think we need to look more at the Hill Elf culture, if for no other reason than its obvious impact on the Kadiz (for that matter I still feel we've overly neglectful of the city folk culture they came from...)

I want to leave the Kaddish somewhat mysterious, since some of my future PCs are reading this thread. The nomads wouldn't know a ton about what the city is like in the contemporary era due to geographical separation (Butcher Hill is hundreds of kilometres away).

As for the Hill Elves, the main points of difference between them and the Kadiz:

The Kadiz ride horses and fight as cavalry, the Hill Elves fight as infantry and use animals only as beasts of burden.

The Kadiz are mostly, but not entirely, human. The Hill Elves are mostly, but not entirely, elves.

The Kadiz claim descent from High Kaddish, and more generally, from the Dawnmen. The Hill Elves claim descent from the ancient enemies of the Dawnmen (also called the Hill Elves).

The Kadiz are nomads moving towards pastoralism. The Hill Elves are nomads who are moving towards hunting and gathering.

The Kadiz live on the open plains, especially near areas with good grazing. The Hill Elves live in gorges, barrows, and forests that dot the plains - they live where game is more likely to be found.

The Kadiz do not eat other sentient humanoids. The Hill Elves will.

The Kadiz are a "point of light" as 4e uses that idea. The Hill Elves are not. They are insular, and generally hostile to strangers.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineI want to leave the Kaddish somewhat mysterious, since some of my future PCs are reading this thread. The nomads wouldn't know a ton about what the city is like in the contemporary era due to geographical separation (Butcher Hill is hundreds of kilometres away).

Even so, the Kadiz would remember what the Kaddish were like when they left, which is really the important part.  If we know the starting point (pre-exile Kaddish) and we know the main points of contention between the rebels and the exiles, we have a very powerful description of what the Kadiz took with them, along with a decent starting point to extrapolate where the Kaddish went... though since you don't want to go over that publicly for understandable reasons there is no real value in speculating 'current state' Kaddish culture beyond what we have.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineAs for the Hill Elves, the main points of difference between them and the Kadiz:

The Kadiz ride horses and fight as cavalry, the Hill Elves fight as infantry and use animals only as beasts of burden.

The hill Elves do have domestication then, but, when combined with the lower points are not entirely nomadic.  Low level (subsitance) herding? Attack Dogs? How important are the domesticated animals to the Hill Elf lifestyle?

Quote from: PseudoephedrineThe Kadiz claim descent from High Kaddish, and more generally, from the Dawnmen. The Hill Elves claim descent from the ancient enemies of the Dawnmen (also called the Hill Elves).

Assuming you have at least a notional mythic cycle in mind, with who the dawnmen are said to have been and the mythic reasons the Hill elves were their historical enemies.  Obviously the Hill Elves have less mythic history on the subject (perhaps even none, the Dawnmen don't figure into their myths as all, a non-important event historically) else they'd be far less inclined to help the exiled Kaddish (the Kadiz) when they first moved to the plains, thus invalidating your history slightly.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineThe Kadiz are nomads moving towards pastoralism. The Hill Elves are nomads who are moving towards hunting and gathering.

Non-sequitor. Nomads are, by default, hunter-gatherer cultures.  The evolution of nomadic cultures is towards a 'resource cultivation' culture, pastoral (where they put down roots and begin agriculture) and Husbandry (as the nomads of the middle east and Mongolia).  I'm reasonably certain there is no more primative 'food' state than 'hunter-gatherer' that applies, though perhaps 'scavenger' might.  I postulated that the elves of my own setting moved to a more evolved form of hunter/gatherer culture which was purely notional as I don't believe we have a historical model for 'Natural Husbandry as subsistance', but that is neither here nor there.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineThe Kadiz live on the open plains, especially near areas with good grazing. The Hill Elves live in gorges, barrows, and forests that dot the plains - they live where game is more likely to be found.

This is why I suggest that the Hill Elves are not nomadic, or are at best semi-nomadic.  Barrows require work and time that Nomads simply can't invest in their houseing.  If the Plains are big enough, and you use a 'global world' model, that would suggest that the Hill Elves also prefer to occupy the more equatorial regions, where seasonal migration does not affect their hunting and gathering, or places were there are large bodies of water to fish in.  There IS the possibility that they have developed very good methods of food preservation as an alternative, and having mastered their local environments probably have meals based around whatever resources are available in any give season.

Quote from: PseudoephedrineThe Kadiz do not eat other sentient humanoids. The Hill Elves will.

This opens an entire tree of questions: Do the Elves eat other Elves or is this forbidden?  

If they eat other Elves, is it purely for survival needs or is there a measure of ritual to it? Is it an honor to be eaten?

If they do not eat other elves is it because the veiw other sentients as 'lesser beings', animals that talk if you will? Has their attitude towards the Kadiz, in this regard, changed as the relationship between the two cultures grown closer.   Do the Elves actively hunt other sentients or do they just eat them when the opportunity comes up.  How important is the cannibalism to their culture?

Quote from: PseudoephedrineThe Kadiz are a "point of light" as 4e uses that idea. The Hill Elves are not. They are insular, and generally hostile to strangers.

Should have snipped this last bit as its relatively unimportant in building working models of a culture, being a metagame consideration.  However, it is something to be worked with: obviously Hill elves would not be found casually strolling about outside their communities. Insular hostility goes both ways.

this introduces the possibility that teh Kadiz have mercantile interests with the Hill Elves, being the only people with a remotely freindly relationship with the Elves, if there is anything to be traded on either side (and there always is) all transactions would have to go through the Kadiz, no one else can chance a meeting with the hostile (and scary...) cannibals of the plains.

that's not to say any traders would necessarily be CLOSE to the hill Elves, I can imagine tense meetings and plenty of warning the new guy 'don't look to the left, they take that as 'cursing them' and they'll butcher us all. I'd rather give you up than that. If I catch you looking left, I'll kill you myself, got it?!" conversations.

Given that both groups are more or less exchanging mates, could be a possible (or one possible) source for 'warbrides'. Closer relationships could include 'fosterlings', where young humans spend several years with the Elves, and young Elves spend a few years with the Humans, possibly as 'hostage exchanges' to prevent unnecessary competition over scarce resources.