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Author Topic: My 4e homebrew setting: The Plains of Kadiz  (Read 23441 times)

Pseudoephedrine
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My 4e homebrew setting: The Plains of Kadiz
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2008, 11:59:26 PM »
Thanks mate.
Running
The Pernicious Light, or The Wreckers of Sword Island;
A Goblin's Progress, or Of Cannons and Canons;
An Oration on the Dignity of Tash, or On the Elves and Their Lies
All for S&W Complete
Playing: Dark Heresy, WFRP 2e

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Spike

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« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2008, 08:22:45 PM »
I was thinking about your nomad comments and this is what I came up with:

Nomads tend to gravitate towards more primative 'animist' religions. Probably due to infrastructure, or lack thereof, to support more organized religion. So the 'native american wise man' trope is somewhat appropriate. However, the problem comes when you make the fucker's 'right'. I could tell tales of my Boss's in-laws from Mongolia that, barring a few word changes, would probably sound right at home in a 'Western'.  How much you emphasize it is the important part.

Swarthy bandits: well, you spend a lot of time out of doors, you get dark. Further: Tribal cultures (nomads invariably adopt tribal patterns) invariably get marked by overpopulation compared to available resources controlled by pragmatic violence. They hunt for food and steal resources from others. People die, and then there are fewer mouths to feed.  Certainly banditry would never be the primary occupation (hunting would be... no agriculture), but it would be prevelant.

Its all well and good to avoid established cliches and general dumbfuckery when portraying a culture, but if you do so without looking at why those cliches exist, you risk making up cultural groups that seem silly and nonsensical.   You present yourself as holding to a higher standard of intellectual rigor,  to shape up, yo! :D


EDIT::: Also, this seems more like a region than a world. Nothin' wrong with that, but regions will still have some ties, no matter how tenuous, with stuff outside of them.  It wasn't that China was unknown before Marco Polo, it was that nobody knew anything about it... small difference, but important.
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Pseudoephedrine
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« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2008, 09:24:18 PM »
It's definitely a region. That's why I put in some mentions of things outside of it - the Kingdom of the Falling Stars, the Great Southerly Road, and the Salt Men particularly. :p It is intended to be a relatively isolated region though.

The geography encourages this, if you're familiar with the west coast of Canada (my stated basis for it). There's a huge range of mountains with a desert / plains on the leeward side and swamps / rainforest on the seaward side. I made it somewhat easier to get around by breaking the mountains into two chains instead of one continuous run, but I want a manageable area I can develop in detail rather than an entire world. However, if I do develop the rest of the world, I'm planning to leave most of it just as fragmented and disparate as the plains region. I don't want a powerful empire lurking over the horizon.

Re: Nomads

Don't forget, they've only been nomads for about a hundred years. They're the remnants of the upper-classes of a highly developed nation-state, driven into exile. They don't have an indigenous way of life catering to the necessities of plains-living, but a ramshackle attempt at dominating the plains. The Hill Elves have taught them how to survive and begun the slow process of cultural diffusion, but the nomads are post-urban, not uncivilised. They're pioneers, pilgrims and cowboys.
Running
The Pernicious Light, or The Wreckers of Sword Island;
A Goblin's Progress, or Of Cannons and Canons;
An Oration on the Dignity of Tash, or On the Elves and Their Lies
All for S&W Complete
Playing: Dark Heresy, WFRP 2e

"Elves don't want you cutting down trees but they sell wood items, they don't care about the forests, they''re the fuckin' wood mafia." -Anonymous

Spike

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« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2008, 09:19:10 PM »
Sorry, I was forced to skim. Been working long hours all week and... well...yeah.

Anyway: I find it interesting that a displaced people would turn rapidly to nomadism. I generally see a level of cultural inertia at play in human activities... that is, kick some people out of their city homes into untamed wilderness and they immedeatly start building cities.

Or vice versa, introduce the wonders of agriculture and modern technology to Mongolia (including cities) and you still have a very large nomadic population.  While the causes of urbanization and nomadacism (oooh... totally made that one up...) are quantifiable to a degree, the biggest factor seems to be original culture vs time.

That is: if you take city folk and dump them into a land where agriculture is difficult, but a nomadic culture is sustatainable, it will still be a LONG time before they become entirely nomadic.  If you take nomadic people and teach them about farming and dump them in a fertile river valley, it will still be a LONG time before they start building permanent encampments.

Not forever... urbanization seems to be more or less inevitable when possible at all... Some people are just lazy. :p
For you the day you found a minor error in a Post by Spike and forced him to admit it, it was the greatest day of your internet life.  For me it was... Tuesday.

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Pseudoephedrine
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« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2008, 12:08:27 PM »
Well, one thing I've been considering is pushing the time of the revolution back a bit - as long as two hundred and fifty years previous potentially. I don't want some ancient history though. The speed of the nomads' adaptation is partially from merging with an already nomadic people - the Hill Elves - and partially from necessity. Their ancestors would've been chased around the plains by the armies of Kaddish for at least a few decades after they left.
Running
The Pernicious Light, or The Wreckers of Sword Island;
A Goblin's Progress, or Of Cannons and Canons;
An Oration on the Dignity of Tash, or On the Elves and Their Lies
All for S&W Complete
Playing: Dark Heresy, WFRP 2e

"Elves don't want you cutting down trees but they sell wood items, they don't care about the forests, they''re the fuckin' wood mafia." -Anonymous

Pseudoephedrine
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« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2008, 12:11:15 PM »
Actually Spike, thanks. You've given me a great idea for a location the PCs can visit - one of the nomad warlords can be building a city entirely out of stone in the middle of the plains. He's gathering men and material, and when he's finished, it'll be a bastion that his enemies will break themselves against.
Running
The Pernicious Light, or The Wreckers of Sword Island;
A Goblin's Progress, or Of Cannons and Canons;
An Oration on the Dignity of Tash, or On the Elves and Their Lies
All for S&W Complete
Playing: Dark Heresy, WFRP 2e

"Elves don't want you cutting down trees but they sell wood items, they don't care about the forests, they''re the fuckin' wood mafia." -Anonymous

Spike

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« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2008, 03:15:03 PM »
I love ping ponging ideas... it is always so hard to develop something cool unless I can talk to other people about it, so I'm glad to help!

Maybe I should resurrect the threads on my setting and use smaller posts... I know I mostly skipped the long ones (thread of boss shoulder, ya know...):D
For you the day you found a minor error in a Post by Spike and forced him to admit it, it was the greatest day of your internet life.  For me it was... Tuesday.

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Pseudoephedrine
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« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2008, 07:56:18 PM »
The Nomads:

The nomads call themselves the "Kadiz" whereas members of the Orthocracy are the "Kaddish". This is a shibboleth between the two groups. They speak mutually intelligible dialects of the same language, Kaddish/Kadiz.

History:

The old kingdom of Kaddish was an oligarchic monarchy, with a king who controlled the city and various nobles and officials who controlled the surrounding countryside. When the revolution happened, about a quarter of the city was driven out of the kingdom (the nobles, the surviving royal family, their servants, and anyone thought generally to support them) and fled onto the plains. There, they allied with friendly clans of Hill Elves whom they had previously supported against more hostile elements.

Because the nobles left much of their wealth behind and because they were blamed for provoking the revolution, their power was shattered, and the Kaddish refugee social system began to fall apart rapidly as the newly-emerging "Kadiz" blended elements of Kaddish and Hill Elf culture.

Races:

The nomads of the Plains of Kadiz are the remnants of the old oligarchic party of Kaddish mixed with the more civilised Hill Elf tribes. They have intermingled for about a hundred and fifty years (since the revolution drove them out). Humans and elves continue to form distinct ethnic subgroups within the nomads, but trade and intermarriage mean that the two races are co-extensive with one another - a clan may be mostly elf, but it will have a few human members, and at least as many half-elves. Humans are the more populous of the three races, with half-elves next and true Hill Elves last. The Hill Elves that joined with the nomads are the old traitor clans who assisted the Kaddish against their fellow elves in exchange for the power that an alliance could bring.

Few other races are found amongst the nomads. The knowledge and tools required to soulforge races have been lost by them. Anyone else is almost certainly a slave, a trader, or a refugee from one of the cities. The nomads only allow refugees to join their society if they can be sure that they aren't spies - helots from Dwer Tor and political exiles from Kaddish stand the best chances.

Religion:

The rootstock religion of the nomads is the old Hill Elf religion. It features two main groups of spirits to be placated - the Storm Bulls and the Wolves of the Earth. The wolves hunt the bulls, which causes phenomena like meteor strikes, prairie flash storms, earthquakes and such. The nomads sacrifice cattle to the Wolves of the Earth to feed them and keep them from chasing the Storm Bulls. They burn great swathes of grass as sacrificial feed for the Storm Bulls. There are two different types of priests, each responsible for appeasing one group of the spirits and performing the necessary sacrifices. Generally, priests are not professionals. Priesthood is awarded as a title to worthy members of the community who know the rituals.

The Kaddish brought with them the Knowing, which is understood as part of the Kadiz religion despite actually being wizardry. A Knower is simply someone who understands how arcane magic works well enough to cast it. One may be both a Knower and a priest, and this is in fact quite common.

Most clerics are actually shamans. A shaman is seen to be under the purview of a spirit that is not a member of the Celestial Herd or the Stone Pack. These kind daimons help or harm mankind for reasons that are clear only to them and perhaps the shaman. Most powerful clans keep a few around, but otherwise shamans are expected to wander the plains as they please.

Travel:

Briefly, humans ride horses, elves walk. Not all humans own horses, but horse-taming is a skill humans brought with them to the elves, and the great herds remain in the hands of majority-human clans. Wagons are common, as are sledges.

Families and Clans:

Kadiz families are large, complicated, and confusing. The Hill Elves consider everyone in a clan to be related. This meant that to marry someone other than a relative, young elves would raid other tribes for wives. The humans brought the polygamous, matriarchal practices of their ancestors with them, and combined them with the Hill Elvish clan structure.

In practice, generally one man (elf or human) is in charge of each sept of the clan. He has many wives of both elvish, human and mixed descent, and attempts to father as many children as possible on them. The male children must go out raiding or trading to find as many wives as possible, while the female children are traded out to other clans or other septs by the older women. The wives of dead men are usually married off within the clan to other men, usually friends or brothers of the chief. Once a man has enough wives, he may start his own sept. Members of the sept and the rest of the root-clan are considered only distantly related to one another.

The men are generally so busy raiding or herding or praying that the women actually run the sept, and most inter-sept business within a clan is brokered by them. All wife trading is handled by women with minimal input from the man allowed.

This is a highly unstable system, and it is only the high mortality rate amongst men, the large families of the nomads, and the fact that they raid not just other clans but also the Kaddish, the helots of Dwer Tor, and hostile Hill Elf clans for any women they can find that keeps it functioning. Like most polygamous societies, there is a fairly stark dichotomy with some men having many wives, many children and much status in society, and many men having no wives at all. These men tend to form the bulk of the raiding parties sent out to capture new wives.

The nomads have very large families. Child mortality is low because the diseases that plagued their urban ancestors are not as easily transmitted with the lower population density. Food, in the form of cattle, sheep, goats and their byproducts are plentiful. The polygamous structure of families also means that four or five children can be carried to term within the same period of time. Having large families is culturally expected, and eventually founding one's own sept is desirable.

The inhabitants of Dwer Tor and the Orthocracy both have stereotypes of the Kadiz as sex-crazed murderous bandits that derive at least partly from these customs.

With the PCs, this is mostly going to mean that they're all either going to be unmarried goons who'll feel constant pressure to get married, thus leading to adventure! And they'll have huge families who are always getting into trouble and need their adventurer third-cousin-twice-removed to help them get out of it.

More later.
Running
The Pernicious Light, or The Wreckers of Sword Island;
A Goblin's Progress, or Of Cannons and Canons;
An Oration on the Dignity of Tash, or On the Elves and Their Lies
All for S&W Complete
Playing: Dark Heresy, WFRP 2e

"Elves don't want you cutting down trees but they sell wood items, they don't care about the forests, they''re the fuckin' wood mafia." -Anonymous

Spike

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« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2008, 06:43:31 PM »
It isn't explicitely stated that the 'revolution' that lead to the 'birth' of the Nomads as a peasant revolution, but the numbers/demographics of the exiles seems to suggest it, along with what I understand of your personal outlook.

Historically, few revolts of peasants/serfs ousted a ruling class, most revolutions within a culture appear to be one powerbloc ousting another one in dominance plays.

Given the fact that the existing nobility (the nomads) were entirly routed, and as I understand the current Kaddish are religious zealots (yes/no?), it sounds like you have a firm basis to establish a somewhat unconventional but believable revolution where the religious/beaurocratic caste ousted the dominant warrior caste... possibly in the face of general lack of external wars and decline in martial prowess.

As a side note, as I understand it horses were the first domesticated animal, predating canids (wolves to dogs...) by 4000 years or more. This creates an unusual question when you realize that horses should have been domesticated around the time the first 'native americans' crossed the bering straits, yet no horses did until the Europeans brought them the other way...
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Pseudoephedrine
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« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2008, 01:07:43 AM »
Quote from: Spike

Given the fact that the existing nobility (the nomads) were entirly routed, and as I understand the current Kaddish are religious zealots (yes/no?), it sounds like you have a firm basis to establish a somewhat unconventional but believable revolution where the religious/beaurocratic caste ousted the dominant warrior caste... possibly in the face of general lack of external wars and decline in martial prowess.


Yes, that's a very good summation of what I was thinking. The only emendation I would make is that I wouldn't call the competing power blocs "castes", since that implies a fairly strict membership based on birth. I would refer to them as factions, and I mean something here less like "Republican" or "Tory" than the factions of late Republican Rome - the populares and optimates. The parties would be some what different, but still intelligible.

One is conservative, priding itself on martial mastery, good birth, and upholding the traditions of Kaddish. The other is radical and technocratic, wanting men of knowledge to reinvent society. The latter faction wins by harnessing popular discontent with the government and drives out the opposing faction.

I don't know if I'd call the Kaddish "religious zealots" though they certainly are fervent about their religions. I see them as just prone to enthusiasm generally. They're a dynamic, willful people, always doing, rarely reflecting. I want to use them in game to focus on mankind's will to transform the world, whether for good or ill. By contrast, the nomad culture is the opposite. Not fatalistic, but emphasising the impermanence of all things. I think that sets up a couple of strong themes for PCs to react to in play, however they end up doing so.
Running
The Pernicious Light, or The Wreckers of Sword Island;
A Goblin's Progress, or Of Cannons and Canons;
An Oration on the Dignity of Tash, or On the Elves and Their Lies
All for S&W Complete
Playing: Dark Heresy, WFRP 2e

"Elves don't want you cutting down trees but they sell wood items, they don't care about the forests, they''re the fuckin' wood mafia." -Anonymous

Spike

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« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2008, 01:47:57 AM »
Yeah. Castes was the only word I could think of, though I suppose CLASS would have been a bit more open ended. I just tend to think of Castes because the transition can be easily seen in studying the history of India, with the warrior caste being gradually supplanted (peacefully) by the Brahmins.

I'm sure, in a few thousand years they might talk about a similar transition in Europe as the traditional nobility (Knights and soldiers) lost power and prestige to the merchant class during the Industrial revolution or somesuch.

Personally, I'd run with the class war aspect, with the strong theocracy running the cities, tithes supplanting taxes, and a dissipated remaining nobility recalling their glorious warrior history even as they more or less live on teh sufferance of the dominant church (es?), while the nomads outside start reviving some of their older traditions.

I still think your timeline is a bit to collapsed, as there will still be elders of the clans who recall that their parents and grandparents lived in the cities, and the culture and treasures they once had.
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Pseudoephedrine
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« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2008, 02:23:27 AM »
Quote from: Spike
Yeah. Castes was the only word I could think of, though I suppose CLASS would have been a bit more open ended. I just tend to think of Castes because the transition can be easily seen in studying the history of India, with the warrior caste being gradually supplanted (peacefully) by the Brahmins.

I'm sure, in a few thousand years they might talk about a similar transition in Europe as the traditional nobility (Knights and soldiers) lost power and prestige to the merchant class during the Industrial revolution or somesuch.


Definitely. While I'm trying to avoid overloading the Marxian social history aspect of this world, I've always thought that the specialised knowledge required for magic in D&D and fantasy more generally is more or less analogous to the specialised knowledge of science, economy and technology that helped kick off the transition to capitalism (amongst many other factors).

Quote
Personally, I'd run with the class war aspect, with the strong theocracy running the cities, tithes supplanting taxes, and a dissipated remaining nobility recalling their glorious warrior history even as they more or less live on teh sufferance of the dominant church (es?), while the nomads outside start reviving some of their older traditions.


Not a bad idea, but I want the Kaddish to be more chaotic than a traditionally-conceived theocracy would be. There isn't really anyone in charge of everything any more. Everyone's power is unstable and based on their personal power and charisma rather than any sort of institutional inertia. This will make it less of a homogeneous, static element that the PCs can take a single unwavering attitude towards. In play, I hope to have the Orthocracy as both villains and allies, and the same for Dwer Tor and any other groups they might encounter.

Quote
I still think your timeline is a bit to collapsed, as there will still be elders of the clans who recall that their parents and grandparents lived in the cities, and the culture and treasures they once had.


Indeed. And they want them back.

I want a short timeline for a few reasons:

1) It allows the PCs to feel that the history of the world is relevant without making them historians who have to remember that 5,000 years ago Baron von Wondertwat poisoned Duke Finkleberry at dinner.

2) It means that everything is still in a state of flux - nothing has settled back to "normal". The PCs can interfere with and drastically change the setting because the setting itself is unstable.
Running
The Pernicious Light, or The Wreckers of Sword Island;
A Goblin's Progress, or Of Cannons and Canons;
An Oration on the Dignity of Tash, or On the Elves and Their Lies
All for S&W Complete
Playing: Dark Heresy, WFRP 2e

"Elves don't want you cutting down trees but they sell wood items, they don't care about the forests, they''re the fuckin' wood mafia." -Anonymous

Spike

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« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2008, 04:38:48 PM »
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine


Not a bad idea, but I want the Kaddish to be more chaotic than a traditionally-conceived theocracy would be. There isn't really anyone in charge of everything any more. Everyone's power is unstable and based on their personal power and charisma rather than any sort of institutional inertia. This will make it less of a homogeneous, static element that the PCs can take a single unwavering attitude towards. In play, I hope to have the Orthocracy as both villains and allies, and the same for Dwer Tor and any other groups they might encounter.

.



A theocracy doesn't have to be monolithic or particularly stable. Consider the way the ancient Eqyptian temples rose and fell in prominance over time, how one pharoh from an ooky cult (parralelled oddly enough in Rome much later) really threw everything out of wack until his eventual assassination and the purging of his name/favorite god.

Toss in a bit of influx from other cultures and you get the interesting flip flop of the Vedic and brahminic gods in India (and lord help me, but I am sure I'm messing something up in here... globe hopping history without referencing anything for the... possible... lose...) as one set of Gods replaced another.

Which could also give you a partial impetus for the revolution as well...or certainly another facet to it, particularly if the exiles worship different gods than the city dwellers.
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« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2008, 10:37:32 AM »
I think I'm resistant just because theocracies are so common in fantasy, and they're almost always evil. I favour a morally ambiguous, highly corrupt but also incredibly vibrant democracy just because it's slightly less common in fantasy. Now, there'll still be cults and religious fanatics etc., but they'll be one element amongst many, rather than the dominant one. The other thing I'll avoid with the Kaddish is evil merchants. I want Dwer Tor to be the place fixated on money.

That also sets up some reasons for travel - if the PCs want better gear or to sell off the fist-sized Eye of Torlak ruby, or even just to spend those gold coins they just found, they have to go to Dwer Tor, but if they want to train in the Seven Black Blade Dance, they've got to head for the Orthocracy. That means more time spent on the plains, which is where I want most of their adventures to happen.
Running
The Pernicious Light, or The Wreckers of Sword Island;
A Goblin's Progress, or Of Cannons and Canons;
An Oration on the Dignity of Tash, or On the Elves and Their Lies
All for S&W Complete
Playing: Dark Heresy, WFRP 2e

"Elves don't want you cutting down trees but they sell wood items, they don't care about the forests, they''re the fuckin' wood mafia." -Anonymous

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« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2008, 05:18:06 PM »
Things of Direct Interest to PCs:

Money:

Only Dwer Tor has a mint. They mint half ounce gold and silver pieces worth their weight in the relevant precious metals, and copper chits with a face value of 1/10th of a silver piece that are only recognised in Dwer Tor's zone of influence.

The Kaddish use mulberry paper scrip that is only useful if you want to trade with the Kaddish. Kaddish merchants will take Dwer Tor coins, but Dwer Tor really doesn't care about Kaddish scrip. Trade between the two is mostly barter for goods and services.

The Kadiz use Dwer Tor gold and silver pieces where they are available, and barter when they aren't.

Magic:

The ancestors of the Kaddish discovered and spread the principles of wizardry. It is considered a collection of religious traditions, called the Knowing. Different traditions vary widely in their practices, and membership is based on mutual recognition. Wizards are generally called "thaumaturges" or "gnostics". Soulforging is one, perhaps the most famous, tradition amongst the gnostics.

Divine magic comes from daimons, not from the gods. Some daimons are servants of the gods, some are not. Clerics are dedicated to a particular daimon, though they may also be priests of gods. The daimons do not seem to want to be worshipped themselves, and their motives are often inscrutable. Daimons and demons are different sorts of things - daimons are immaterial and not necessarily evil. Paladins also serve particular daimons, and there is not a particularly sharp division in the setting between a cleric and a paladin.

Warlocks make pacts with other magical creatures - the fey, the stars, the elementals, various demons and devils - for power. Members of the soulforged races are particularly good at this, as their souls have already been permeated with magic, making it easier for the pact to "stick".
Running
The Pernicious Light, or The Wreckers of Sword Island;
A Goblin's Progress, or Of Cannons and Canons;
An Oration on the Dignity of Tash, or On the Elves and Their Lies
All for S&W Complete
Playing: Dark Heresy, WFRP 2e

"Elves don't want you cutting down trees but they sell wood items, they don't care about the forests, they''re the fuckin' wood mafia." -Anonymous