Quote from: Sacrosanct;566638I won't disagree that there is a difference, but in the context of an rpg, what is the significant difference between a Walther 9mm PPS and a Beretta 9mm 92F?

The Walther PPS is a concealed carry weapon, with polymer frame, shorter sight radius, shorter barrel and reduced size grip compared to the 92F.

In practical terms (and with the typical user) this results in higher felt recoil, more difficult follow up shots, slightly lower muzzle velocity with the same ammo, and reduced accuracy compared to the 92F. It is however more concealable (which is the primary point).

Completely different weapons, and as someone who's fired pistols in the Walther Class (and have fired the 92F in addition)- they are as night and day in actual use both in intent and actual function.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566638I think if you get too far into the differences, you have a ton of bloat and you end up spending more time comparing guns than you do playing the game.

As someone who has spent a lot of time going into the differences (both in real life and in game design), I can say in complete truth that I've spent far more time playing the game (on the order of few magitude I would think)  than I did working out the system conversions. Although I will say that I had great deal of fun doing both.

Of course I did have the advantage of already knowing and researching firearms in depth before undertaking anything in game design.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566547Curious.  May I ask why?  I mean, sure there are differences if you go into a really micro level, but then you end up with thousands of weapons that really don't have any major significant difference in the context of an RPG.  Do people playing an RPG really sit and do ballistics calculations to capture realism?

Only Gleichman, so now is a good time to start ignoring his advice.

A Beretta 9mm can have burst mode, namely in the 93R version. A Walther 9mm does not.

There you have the meaningful difference.

Quote from: Phantom Black;566763A Beretta 9mm can have burst mode, namely in the 93R version. A Walther 9mm does not.

There you have the meaningful difference.

I was talking more about the 92F and PPS.  Most of those things gleichman mentioned are pretty insignificant in the context of an rpg.  So what if one has 1200 fps and the other 1150?  How are you going to measure that difference in terms of a game mechanic.  Who cares if accuracy at 50m is less than an inch difference?  How are you going to account for that in an rpg.

Remember, we're not just talking about coming up with rules for just a few handguns.  You have to have rules for every gun, so in that context, if you have a modifier for every 50 fps muzzle velocity, you're going to end up with a ton of them since it can vary from 400fps to 3000fps, depending if you're talking about a small pistol to a large rifle.  And if you're going to create a modifier or 1/2" difference at 50m, what modifiers are you going to have for distances of 25m, 50m, 100m, 150m, 300m, 500m, 750m, and 1000m for pistols, submachine guns, assault rifles, hunting rifles, smooth bore, bullpup design, etc.  And then have all of those duplicated for each type of ammunition used, and then duplicate them all again in regards to damage due to bullet velocity and penetrating power at various ranges.  Nightmare.

My point is that if you really wanted to model reality to the point gleichman is suggesting, you'd have probably 100 pages of just charts.  I'm willing to bet most gamers don't want that mess.  Heck, with just my 1 page of charts, we already had someone say it was too complicated.

That's why I think it's a bad idea to break it down into that level of detail where you have mechanical rules for the differences between a 9mm PPS and a 92f.  Just do like I have it, where you can have your burst version just by selecting PC-H2.

Quote from: Phantom Black;566763A Beretta 9mm can have burst mode, namely in the 93R version. A Walther 9mm does not.

There you have the meaningful difference.

I think that the point of that sort of thing is being missed though.  What he's trying to avoid is having huge, exhaustive lists of real-world weapons by building a system whereby, if the players want to have a Beretta 93R instead of an M9, they say:  I want to buy a PC-H2.  Then they can say "It's a Beretta 93R."  Or they can say "It's a Glock 18."  Or they can buy a few more options and say "It's a H&K VP70."

The more likely scenario is that the players scavenge through the ruins of a factory, pulling out odd parts and breaking machinery to get materials.  Then the tech-savvy member goes around the table finding out what people want in their guns, and tells the GM  "Ok.. Fargor wants a burst capable 9mm pistol, I'm going to put together a PC-H2 using the parts from that broken Beretta we found, and I'll use that laser pointer we found to put in a sight and a fold-down front grip, so it's going to be a PC-H2-SL/FG.  What's my modifier for the assembly roll?"

In the scope of the game that he's working on, the level of detail is such that he doesn't feel that it's needed to have every model of wondernine with essentially identical stats listed.  And even if he's modeling off real guns, as long as he has a simple system that allows the modeling to go well and takes into account the differences that can be portrayed in the game without over complicating things, any decent players or GM's will be perfectly capable of providing a myriad of differences between various weapons.

In the scope of the Walther PPS vs Beretta 92 discussion, I think that it's perfectly reasonable to say they're different weapons under his system too.  I've already mentioned that the Beretta 92 falls nicely into the PC-S2 category, So if you assume that's a baseline you have a PC-S2-00.  The Walther could be followed through one of two ways, either as a PC-S2-LC (half weight and compact, -1 to initiative) or as a PC-S1-L (lightweight, but using a smaller caliber to differentiate the lower muzzle velocity of the 9mm from the Walther).

It really all depends on how you want to model the guns in the system.  My opinion is that it's a good system for players who don't feel the need to obsess over the ballistics and exact penetration depth, but who still want to be able to say "This is MY gun.  There's not a damn one just like it anywhere." and customize.

Because in the REAL world, it doesn't matter for shit if you're using an M14 or a M4 when you shoot a guy in the chest.  He falls down anyway.  So comparing the exact minutiae of 'Sight Radius and Follow Up shot' is a feeble exercise.  You train with what you want to use, and when you're properly trained, you'll be as good as you can be with that weapon.  Changing the weapon out is only going to make you suck, until you train back up to the same level as you were with the last piece of equipment.  Trying to incorporate every little aspect of a specific gun into the mechanics of a game system is weak design.  You just take it as far as it needs to go to be enjoyable.

Sanc isn't trying to create another Phoenix Command or Millenium's End here, and I think it's pretty disservicable to imply that he should be.  If you want that level of detail, go play those games.

Why is the cornershot option limited to pistols? It's not like aren't any real life counterexamples from the past several decades.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;566789*snip*.

^ pretty much this.  Probably worded better than me.

Quote from: Premier;566803Why is the cornershot option limited to pistols? It's not like aren't any real life counterexamples from the past several decades.

I suppose it doesn't have to be, but here was my thinking.  

Barrel length and bullet size.

All of the corner shot weapons I knew about has barrel lengths around that of a pistol, and fired ammunition typically found in hand guns or submachine guns.  The WWII German tanker gun I don't consider a true corner shot weapon in the context of that enhancement, because it makes the gun worthless in all other scenarios.  The enhancement allows the weapon to fire around corners along with standard fire.

If that's wrong (and it looks like it is), it's easy enough to change.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566779I was talking more about the 92F and PPS.  Most of those things gleichman mentioned are pretty insignificant in the context of an rpg.

It's clear to me since you avoided any reply that you're not interesting in anything but your own (foolish and incorrect) settled thoughts on the matter.

I'll leave you to them.

Quote from: gleichman;566810It's clear to me since you avoided any reply that you're not interesting in anything but your own (foolish and incorrect) settled thoughts on the matter.

I'll leave you to them.

Ta daaa!  OCD rears it's hilarious head.

"5 FPS and 10% humidity can mean the difference between hitting a target and missing by 30yds!  You have to calculate for those or your game will be nothing but a hollow parody!"

EDIT:  I am relatively certain Gleichman is the authour of the Hybrid RPG.

Quote from: gleichman;566810It's clear to me since you avoided any reply that you're not interesting in anything but your own (foolish and incorrect) settled thoughts on the matter.

I'll leave you to them.

?  In my response, I referred to most everything you mentioned.   Just because I didn't quote you specifically (I didn't see the need since I was already typing a response) doesn't mean I didn't reply to you.

But OK.  Whatever.  But let me ask you this, if you are willing to continue the discussion.  How would you handle all of these modifiers (fps, recoil, etc) in the context of rpg mechanics?  What different modifiers would you apply for a PPS compared to a 92F, and then compared to an MP5?  AK-47?  Barret .50 cal?  .308 hunting rifle?  M60?  See where I'm going?

I understand what you're saying.  I really do.  But please understand from my perspective, when I started this years ago, I actually was using ballistics software to try to cover all the minutia.  And it became quickly apparent that it was just way too much.  When you're limited to 6 types of dice, breaking down differences into the thousandths place was something better suited for a video game where the computer does all the work.  Not an rpg where players roll dice.

As another thought, since I've been looking it over during the conversation, since you mentioned that the setting this will be used in is post-apocalyptic, maybe some specifics of how difficult a given option is to fabricate and/or install effectively into a firearm.  

For instance, it's easy to duct tape a laser pointer to your pistol, but it's not as simple to ensure that it's a) properly boresighted to be effective as a target designation device, and b) properly mounted to resist shaking loose under fire.

(I had my LA-5 come off during the demo run for a CQB course at one point, it's pretty embarrassing, even though we weren't using them at the time.. i made that damn screw extra tight the next time...)

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566814?  In my response, I referred to most everything you mentioned.   Just because I didn't quote you specifically (I didn't see the need since I was already typing a response) doesn't mean I didn't reply to you.

You're have to forgive me, but I really took it as a dismissal. I know I'm rather hated in these parts and thus am a bit prone to read the worse in some matters.

Quote from: Sacrosanct;566814But OK.  Whatever.  But let me ask you this, if you are willing to continue the discussion.  How would you handle all of these modifiers (fps, recoil, etc) in the context of rpg mechanics?  What different modifiers would you apply for a PPS compared to a 92F, and then compared to an MP5?  AK-47?  Barret .50 cal?  .308 hunting rifle?  M60?  See where I'm going?

There are three parts to this- first up is if you believe that there are in fact real world practical differences between the PPS and the 92F. You don't seem to believe that, and in that case the whole discussion is really moot, there is no need to represent that which you flatly reject.

Second, there's the question that if you do believe in the differences. Are you willing to pay the increase complexity (of some type even if just more possible choices in firearms) to reflect them in the game design? I think that the answer for you is also no, making the subject moot.


Lastly, it depends upon the system in question to a large degree. You are correct that in some there is little room for anything but overwhelmingly important differences (and sometimes not even those).

Thus my answer would be system dependent, ranging from the most general groupings to very detailed differences depending upon the game. To be honest, I don't know if your system for example can show the differences (actually I know from that charts in your post that it does indeed have some room for the most important of them) for the PPS and 92F. It is however my experience that people tend to underestimate what is and is not possible.

If you are familiar with Hero System, I have a firearm conversion method (replacing their rather dull and superhero genre based weapon list), and a chart answering all the questions you just posed for that system. But I'm uncertain that you'd find it useful. But I'm willing to go into it if you're interested.

Quote from: Panzerkraken;566825(I had my LA-5 come off during the demo run for a CQB course at one point, it's pretty embarrassing, even though we weren't using them at the time.. i made that damn screw extra tight the next time...)

Loctite (blue not red unless my memory fails) is your friend.

Quote from: gleichman;566831Loctite (blue not red unless my memory fails) is your friend.

I usually do, but they wanted all our longarms configured the same way, which was why my setscrew was only a little more than hand tight.  Uniformity is retarded sometimes.