Quote from: droogI have this hypothesis that the logical end of the Forge philosophy is that we should all be making and playing our own games.

I had a similar idea except that the logical end of Forge thinking would lead to there being a game out there for even the slightest group preference.

Quote from: BalbinusThe designing of indie rpgs is being encouraged as an end in its own right, with a variety of indie competitions incentivising people to find ideas so they can create a new indie rpg.

I think some the various competitions tend to go overboard (Game Chef is particularly craptacular and worthy of contempt) but still, I like the general trend of self-producing and self-releasing RPGs.

Quote from: BalbinusThe driving force is often not that someone has an idea for an rpg that cannot be met by an existing game, but that someone wants to be an indie rpg designer and so creates an indie rpg to meet that need.

On that, I am not sure. I think a lot of those games can't be done by an existing RPG. I also like that several "indie people" tend to ask the question: "what makes your idea special?" Or "why couldn't you use [insert existing game]" or just refer people to a list of existing games as food for thought.

Quote from: BalbinusThe result is a glut of indie rpgs, just like the d20 glut, increasing difficulty in telling the good from the bad and increasingly a risk of a bit of a crash in the indie rpg market.  A risk that is disguised by the common habit in the indie scene of designers buying, though frequently not ever playing, each other's games.

Nothing to worry about, IMO. Yes, there will be a crash. Right now they are riding the trend. Good for them. And yes, it's amusing that they buy each other's games. It's hardly unique to roleplaying and happens in other hobbies. Amateur artists often do that.

What I find interesting is that, unlike certain other hobbies, indie designers can still break even or even pull a cute little profit. I know everal amateur musicians who are actually spending hundreds of dollars each per month, despite playing to an audience.

So I like how the indie industry of RPGs is developing in this respect. It is sustainable, although some projects are doomed for failure.

Quote from: BalbinusThoughts?  Am I totally off base?  It seems to me the current setup has similarities to the d20 one and similar effects, a lot of people producing games that nobody or hardly anybody ever actually plays and in the process making it harder to find the real gems.

Well, yeah. That's how it's always been in this hobby, no?  It wasn't any easier finding the great roleplaying games in the 80s and the 90s either.

The difference is that indie RPGs don't depend on complex and quirky distribution channels. They self-regulate themselves. Thus, whatever happens, there won't be a spectacular crash.

I really like that. I think going indie makes sense. I think it is the future of roleplaying as we know it, barring some true visionaries breaking out in a big way.

When there's a Forger "Abortion" game, then you can talk about an indie glut like the d20 glut.

Quote from: JimBobOzWhen there's a Forger "Abortion" game, then you can talk about an indie glut like the d20 glut.

I thought that It Was A Mutual Decision was their Abortion game :deviousgrin:

Regards,
David R

My vote goes to Nicotine Girls. It's so depressing, abortion would fit right in.

That everyone and their brother has their own game is nothing new.  It's just that in the eighties and early nineties, people would call their game a "homebrew" rather than an "indie design".  There was often less sophistication particularly in the writing and the printing.  

In the last nineties, I started my list of Free RPGs on the Web -- and I was quickly amazed at how many people had their own game system, sometimes with hundreds of pages.  My list quickly grew out into the hundreds, then passed a thousand.  What has really changed now is that post-nineties, people now have the tools to really put together and publish a game on their own.  

I agree with Pundit that they're can't really be a crash yet.  It's already true that most indie games have no market, and even the top handful have only a really small market.  As long as we have venues like Lulu where it is essentially free to put an indie RPG up for publication, I think that the indie market (such as it is) isn't likely to shrink.  

I do disagree with one thing:

Quote from: RPGPunditThey all publish because they want their "groovy card" punched, because that's all gaming is about to them; a chance to get some kind of weird sick psychological fulfullment by pretending to be doing really deep important radical stuff... instead of, you know, going out and doing that stuff.

Sigh.  This is an old chesnut regularly used to attack any sort of creative endeavor -- i.e. "Instead of writing about X, why don't you go do X!" and so forth.  It's possible for something to be self-indulgent (and I think many games are), but you can't just say that anything which is a creative work instead of activity is automatically self-indulgent.

Quote from: jhkimSigh.  This is an old chesnut regularly used to attack any sort of creative endeavor -- i.e. "Instead of writing about X, why don't you go do X!" and so forth.  It's possible for something to be self-indulgent (and I think many games are), but you can't just say that anything which is a creative work instead of activity is automatically self-indulgent.

No, but of course that's not what I'm saying: I'm saying that the MOTIVES the Swine have for wanting to publish games are based on something other than a love for games themselves, much less RPGs.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditNo, but of course that's not what I'm saying: I'm saying that the MOTIVES the Swine have for wanting to publish games are based on something other than a love for games themselves, much less RPGs.

RPGPundit

Are we talking about Indie = Forge / Storygames, or Indie = Indie?

QuoteAre we talking about Indie = Forge / Storygames, or Indie = Indie?

Lo and behold the value of the usage of the term "Thematic Game" would bring to this discussion!

Quote from: StuartAre we talking about Indie = Forge / Storygames, or Indie = Indie?

"Indie" meaning Forge/Storygames. Take it up with them. Its their fault that they stole the term from all the other independent publishers.

RPGPundit

edited to add: and they did so, again, out of their desperate psychological desire to feel hip.

Quote from: StuartAre we talking about Indie = Forge / Storygames, or Indie = Indie?

Indie meaning Forge, other indie games I tend to call small press.

Settembrini is correct by the way, thematic games would be a useful term here.  Last time I used it though Pundit lambasted me for including them within the umbrella of rpg or something and I lack the appetite to fight that particular battle.

Quote from: BalbinusIndie meaning Forge, other indie games I tend to call small press.

First of all, this is just plain contradictory, since you call them "other indie games" in your explanation.  

Second, the Forge itself defines "indie" differently -- inclusive of any creator-owned works, not just Forge-associated ones (cf. About the Forge).  It seems ridiculous to me to use the term "indie" for Forge games in defiance of the Forge definition.  Even moreso to use a definition which contradicts the Forge one, then blame them for stealing the term.  

If you're going to attack the Forge, attack it on things it actually says.  

Quote from: RPGPunditNo, but of course that's not what I'm saying: I'm saying that the MOTIVES the Swine have for wanting to publish games are based on something other than a love for games themselves, much less RPGs.

Well, in general, people who self-publish have a certain amount of ego in their creations -- this is just as true of indie D20 publishers or Senzar as others.  I think the idea of anyone publishing out of "pure love" is doubtful -- and if they do, it sounds like they're some kind of damn pervert!  

Quote from: jhkimFirst of all, this is just plain contradictory, since you call them "other indie games" in your explanation.  

Second, the Forge itself defines "indie" differently -- inclusive of any creator-owned works, not just Forge-associated ones (cf. About the Forge).  It seems ridiculous to me to use the term "indie" for Forge games in defiance of the Forge definition.  Even moreso to use a definition which contradicts the Forge one, then blame them for stealing the term.  

If you're going to attack the Forge, attack it on things it actually says.

I would do, but I'm not attacking the Forge.

Indie as in Forge games is the most common usage, I'm well aware it doesn't match the actual Forge usage, but then even the Forge all too often doesn't really use the proper usage.

Speaking properly, indie obviously includes small press, in practice when people use the term they mean Forge style games, and by that they mean a certain type of Forge style game.

My reply was in context, taken in that context I think it's fairly plain I meant indie for the purposes of this thread is referring to a certain type of game popularised by the Forge rather than a more general usage of the term indie, but I didn't really feel the need to type all that out.

Edit:  To clarify, usage is determined by use, naturally enough.  The term indie for a certain type of Forge game is so widespread as a usage that I think it is the most logical one to use, the term as defined by the Forge is used by almost nobody, including by and large indie gamers (by which I mean of course gamers focussing primarily on focussed thematic games typical of a certain family of Forge design) who routinely use the term indie game to mean their type of game and very rarely use it to mean simply creator owned.

If I wanted to refer to creator owned I'd probably just say, hm, creator owned.

Quote from: jhkimWell, in general, people who self-publish have a certain amount of ego in their creations -- this is just as true of indie D20 publishers or Senzar as others.  I think the idea of anyone publishing out of "pure love" is doubtful -- and if they do, it sounds like they're some kind of damn pervert!  

Totally untrue from, my experience. D20 vanity publishers generally don't usually see themselves as being edgy or cool. They see themesleves as publishing "here's some rules for what happens when your character drinks too much" or "here's an expanded list of 30 poisons".

Although maybe my experience is limited to the guys who are pretty much publishing their D&D house rules and subsystems.

There's certainly no delusions of "publishing makes you cool", though. After all, these are D&D guys. I'd say for the most part, they really are doing it for love, and they aren't part of a supremacist cult.

Quote from: Abyssal MawTotally untrue from, my experience. D20 vanity publishers generally don't usually see themselves as being edgy or cool. They see themesleves as publishing "here's some rules for what happens when your character drinks too much" or "here's an expanded list of 30 poisons".

Maybe if I had suggested that they saw themselves as "edgy" or "cool", this would have some meaning.  But I didn't, so this is a non-sequitor.