If you want to start a thread about for RPGs are different from everything else, why not do so?

I think that the majority of theory on RPGs (at least the type discussed on RPG forums) is created in a vacuum without any reference to other forms of media, performance, or gameplay.  To date that hasn't produced any theory that's been helpful in designing a new game.

I'm also not drawing quotes from sources looking exclusively at books and film.  The quotes all come from sources primarily concerned with interactive narratives.  They discuss roleplaying, LARPs, MUDs, MMORPGs, and Interactive Fiction.

QuoteI think that the majority of theory on RPGs (at least the type discussed on RPG forums) is created in a vacuum without any reference to other forms of media, performance, or gameplay.  

Not so. "Story" is an example for how a free-floating umbrella term is used to subsume vastly different experiences produced in vastly different media under a single rubric.

QuoteI'm also not drawing quotes from sources looking exclusively at books and film.  The quotes all come from sources primarily concerned with interactive narratives.  They discuss roleplaying, LARPs, MUDs, MMORPGs, and Interactive Fiction.

Exactly, and that's the problem as I see it. We need specificity, not generalization, and "interactive narrative," like "immersion," is an example for the latter.

Quote from: StuartIf you want to start a thread about for RPGs are different from everything else, why not do so?

Coz I'm a busy guy. I can point the way, but I can't chart the territory. I don't have the time Ron Edwards permits himself to have.

But... if you want to check out what I'm getting at, re. a medium and the specific experience it generates, have a look at Stanley Cavell, The World Viewed, a book on film as medium.

It is a very tough and partly infuriating book, but also a very smart one. Just the tip of the iceberg, but an important tip.

I've read enough books on "what is film" for a while.

Quote from: Stanley CavellSo my first philosophical question was when I asked myself, "What is film?" [which] came in the form of "What are its differences?" From painting, from theater, from any of the arts, from literature -- how is a script different from a libretto, all of these questions. And that produced this book that I see on the table here, The World Viewed.

Cavell couldn't have written about how the script was different from the libretto if he didn't understand what it was and how it worked.

I agree that there are things specific to each media that are unlike the others... but you can't tell what those differences are until you know which ones they have in common with the others.

Quote from: StuartIf you want to start a thread about for RPGs are different from everything else, why not do so?

I know this has become a common way of demanding focus in threads on RPG forumabobs, but I really think you should consider whether you're diverting constructive criticism.

That said I think you started off well early on in the thread by drawing a line around a specific phenomenon you wanted to examine. The problem is that we've somehow gotten diverted into, basically, arguing over whether that's the phenomenon of interest. I'm sure I've contributed to that drift myself, but I think you may want to be a lot more careful about your use of outside sources. E.g. ask yourself if those Daedalus Project quotes are really germane to your specific topic or if they just contribute to the "what is 'immersion'" cacophony.

It might help if you began by sticking to "Narrative Immersion" consistently, to indicate that other phenomena have an equal claim to the term "immersion", then asked how it translates from the article to the RPG context. This will give you a precise definition to work with.

The next pitfall I'd want to avoid is defining "other immersions" as categories in the same space as "Narrative Immersion"--disjoint sets, subsets, or supersets. For example I've seen a drive over at story games to turn the "immersion" I've described above, which could maybe be called "first-person play", "character immersion" (and may also share characteristics with usages of terms like "virtualism" and "avatarism") into a subset of other immersions, maybe Narrative Immersion or Flow. Not so, as I've tried to show. I can be floundering while learning new mechanics or trying to learn my way around an unfamiliar setting, but still have a sense of "character immersion".

It might be that I'm being purposefully vague about the terms so as to subvert the process of RPG theory discussions generating new jargon. :raise:

The Storygames thread seems to have moved into selecting a new 3-letter acronym to categorize playstyles with.

So far "FIE" seems to be in the lead.  (totally serious)

:haw:

Quote from: StuartIt might be that I'm being purposefully vague about the terms so as to subvert the process of RPG theory discussions generating new jargon. :raise:

The Storygames thread seems to have moved into selecting a new 3-letter acronym to categorize playstyles with.

So far "FIE" seems to be in the lead.  (totally serious)

:haw:

Three...it's a magic number...yes it is....

Quote from: StuartIt might be that I'm being purposefully vague about the terms so as to subvert the process of RPG theory discussions generating new jargon.

Didn't you respond to John Morrow earlier by explaining that you aren't talking about "immersion", just "Narrative Immersion". I thought you were headed in the right direction there, except that you then kept using "immersion" and drawing in quotes like the ones from the Daedalus Project that are talking about something other than Narrative Immersion, at least if you look at how they contrast it with its absence.

I know I criticize jargon a lot, but it's one thing to avoid creating new jargon and another to embrace a conceptual muddle.

Quote from: StuartCavell couldn't have written about how the script was different from the libretto if he didn't understand what it was and how it worked.

I agree that there are things specific to each media that are unlike the others... but you can't tell what those differences are until you know which ones they have in common with the others.

Predictable and and equally pointless retort: "No, you can't define the commonalities until you understand the differences, lest you confuse the one with the other."

Discussion on this level of high school Ad Absurdum 101 gets nobody anywhere. Nor does quoting one para from a book.

If you don't want to go there, fine. But don't claim you're engaging an argument you haven't absorbed in its full extent.

On a general note, I don't understand the fundamental point of your effort. I thought you're Mr. Anti-Storygame? And now you're elevating "interactive narrative" as a mega-category across all media, including RPGs? Why?

I bring forth this wonderful word:

ambience

Not everything is "immersion", most stuff is ambiance.

Quote from: SettembriniI bring forth this wonderful word:

ambience

Not everything is "immersion", most stuff is ambiance.

I see.

Is "ambience" synonymous with "this big fuzzy cloud that's filling the room for the duration of the game, and in which IG and OOG communication almost but not quite blend into each other"?

Quote from: James J SkachThree...it's a magic number...yes it is....

If they want a three-way triangle, they'd be hard pressed to top this:

                            Interactive
                             Storytelling
                               /     \
                             /         \
                           /             \
                         /                 \
                       /                     \
                     /                         \
                   /                             \
                IC ______________________________ Problem-
            Experience                            Solving

(Where "IC" is "In Character")

Hell yesno!

Ambience is something that everybody understands, no?
Everyone tries to get into the same mood and creates  an ambience for furthering that.
Depending on the mood chosen the techniques vary wildly.
A military parade has an ambience that´s different from a teatime in Westfordshire.

So depending on the game and mood that is to be reached, IG and OOG may fly through the room. it sure does in most of my games.
But there are moods and games where that would be like farting in your face.

There´s nothing special about it. Sometimes it´s allowed to go for a pee, and sometimes it´s not. It´s ambience all the time. In life so in games.

No "immersion" needed.

Quote from: StuartSo far "FIE" seems to be in the lead.  (totally serious)

Hmmm.  You were serious.  :bawling:

Yes, see, this is the problem with attempts at analysis through exhaustive categorization. In most every case I've seen, it starts from an attempt to define a particular category, and then turns into unified taxonomy of special interests.

Quote from: John MorrowIf they want a three-way triangle, they'd be hard pressed to top this:

Code Select Expand


                             Interactive
                             Storytelling
                               /     \
                             /         \
                           /             \
                         /                 \
                       /                     \
                     /                         \
                   /                             \
                IC ______________________________ Problem-
            Experience                            Solving


(Where "IC" is "In Character")

I prefer Jeff's Threefold Model

-clash