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Author Topic: I Don't Play "Let's Pretend" Any More.  (Read 2576 times)

Abyssal Maw

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« Reply #15 on: June 26, 2007, 10:26:08 am »
Warthur is making a lot of sense to me here.
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David R

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« Reply #16 on: June 26, 2007, 10:28:37 am »
Really ?

Edit : Sorry AM/Warthur my post is not contibuting anything to this discussion. I withdraw this comment.

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Warthur

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« Reply #17 on: June 26, 2007, 10:34:17 am »
Quote from: David R
Really ?

Dude, if you've got an issue with what I'm saying, why not directly reply to one of my points and actually engage with me, hm? Passive-aggressive whining from the sidelines isn't going to convince anyone.

Edit to add: Whups, you must have edited while I was posting. :)
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don't want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

I recommend The RPG Pub as a friendly place where RPGs can be discussed and where the guiding principles of moderation are "be kind to each other" and "no politics". It's pretty chill so far.

David R

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« Reply #18 on: June 26, 2007, 10:39:15 am »
Quote from: Warthur
Dude, if you've got an issue with what I'm saying, why not directly reply to one of my points and actually engage with me, hm? Passive-aggressive whining from the sidelines isn't going to convince anyone.


You are right. I made an edit to my post. I won't take you up on your offer though because you said more or less the same on most of your threads about certain games in which I've participated in. You obviously like talking about this sort of stuff and of course about what Uncle Ron says. That's cool but not exactly my scene.

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James J Skach

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« Reply #19 on: June 26, 2007, 06:04:36 pm »
It's actually a brilliant read, Warthur, IMHO.  Thanks for the perspective.
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LostSoul

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« Reply #20 on: June 28, 2007, 09:50:05 am »
Quote from: Warthur
In other words, it's like a philosophical debate where you have to make a successful dice roll before you stand up and make your point, and where (in those games where there's a GM) one participant has vastly more power to frame the debate than everyone else.


In the games that I've played, saying that you want to make a roll for something (or saying that you don't) is like standing up and making your point.  Success or failure on the roll doesn't mean you're not making your point.

In Dogs, staying in a gunfight is like saying, "This is worth dying for."  (Or risking death for.)  The actual outcome of the conflict doesn't change that point you've made.

I agree with the second half of your statement.  And I find Settembrini's posts here very thought provoking.
 

Warthur

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« Reply #21 on: June 28, 2007, 04:35:13 pm »
Quote from: LostSoul
In the games that I've played, saying that you want to make a roll for something (or saying that you don't) is like standing up and making your point.  Success or failure on the roll doesn't mean you're not making your point.

In Dogs, staying in a gunfight is like saying, "This is worth dying for."  (Or risking death for.)  The actual outcome of the conflict doesn't change that point you've made.


Yes, but if you crap out on the dice roll and fail horribly that's like the system slapping you in the face and saying "Wrong!"

Furthermore, even if we say "Initiating dice rolls equates to making a point", the GM has vastly more power to initiate dice rolls in Dogs than the players do - he has all the NPCs and the very environment itself at his beck and call.
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don't want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

I recommend The RPG Pub as a friendly place where RPGs can be discussed and where the guiding principles of moderation are "be kind to each other" and "no politics". It's pretty chill so far.

TonyLB

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« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2007, 06:05:51 pm »
Quote from: Warthur
Yes, but if you crap out on the dice roll and fail horribly that's like the system slapping you in the face and saying "Wrong!"
I do not understand this perspective.

My character says "I've got to stand up for this principle ... even if it means I get shot in the head and die.  That's how important it is."

The dice go badly.  My character gets shot in the head and dies.  How does this diminish my statement?  My guy didn't just claim he would die for the cause ... he actually died for it.  Sounds like more of a statement to me.
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LostSoul

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« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2007, 06:51:00 pm »
Quote from: Warthur
Yes, but if you crap out on the dice roll and fail horribly that's like the system slapping you in the face and saying "Wrong!"


What Tony said.

Quote from: Warthur
Furthermore, even if we say "Initiating dice rolls equates to making a point", the GM has vastly more power to initiate dice rolls in Dogs than the players do - he has all the NPCs and the very environment itself at his beck and call.


I think this can be a problem.  If the GM has set up a town that is all about bigamy, and I don't care about that, then I won't have a chance to make the kind of points that I dig on.  The GM will push conflicts that I'll just give on.
 

Warthur

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« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2007, 07:05:51 am »
Quote from: TonyLB
I do not understand this perspective.

My character says "I've got to stand up for this principle ... even if it means I get shot in the head and die.  That's how important it is."

The dice go badly.  My character gets shot in the head and dies.  How does this diminish my statement?  My guy didn't just claim he would die for the cause ... he actually died for it.  Sounds like more of a statement to me.

Because the character not only got no closer to solving the problem, his player is actually prevented from contributing to the discussion from that point onwards.

Furthermore, if you agree that the strength of the statement is affected by the roll of the dice, to my mind that's unacceptable even if the dice roll backs up the statement. The merits of your statement shouldn't have some ridiculous random element undermining or strengthening them; that's effectively asking people in a formal debate to roll dice to see how cogently and effectively they are allowed to make their points.
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don't want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

I recommend The RPG Pub as a friendly place where RPGs can be discussed and where the guiding principles of moderation are "be kind to each other" and "no politics". It's pretty chill so far.

TonyLB

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« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2007, 07:37:41 am »
Quote from: Warthur
Because the character not only got no closer to solving the problem, his player is actually prevented from contributing to the discussion from that point onwards.
What has solving the problem got to do with anything?  Why would failing to solve the problem invalidate anyone's moral statement about how important the problem is?

Are you approaching this with a superhero-story mentality, where a statement of "I care for this very deeply!" is always accompanied by the power to act successfully upon that passion?  Like Peter finding the strength to defend Mary Jane, or Ben Grimm finding the strength to support his team-mates?
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Warthur

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« Reply #26 on: June 29, 2007, 01:06:58 pm »
Quote from: TonyLB
What has solving the problem got to do with anything?  Why would failing to solve the problem invalidate anyone's moral statement about how important the problem is?

Because if someone says "This problem is worth sacrificing my character's life for" in an exploration of theme, the discussion (as expressed through the game) is put in an untenable position.

Either the character gives his life but the problem is not solved, in which case the character's player's input is not being respected.

Or the character gives his life and the problem is solved, effectively ending the debate - potentially before the other players can make their points.

Narrativism is based on the idea that the primary purpose of a story should be an exploration of theme, which to me defeats the purpose. The primary purpose of a story should be to tell a story, and if there's exploration of theme as well then all well and good.

To me, nothing is less likely to produce "art" than sitting down and declaring "this is Art because we are being Artistic!", and nothing is less likely to produce literature - or a literary narrative - by sitting down and saying "We're going to make Literature by adhering to a bunch of rules for making Literature that we've made up and are by no means universally agreed-on!" The central claim of Narrativism, however, is that through a systemised set of rules you can produce literary narratives.

Quote
Are you approaching this with a superhero-story mentality, where a statement of "I care for this very deeply!" is always accompanied by the power to act successfully upon that passion?  Like Peter finding the strength to defend Mary Jane, or Ben Grimm finding the strength to support his team-mates?

No, I'm approaching this from a "exploring theme" angle, which is supposedly the basis of Narrativist gaming. What is the point of allowing people to explore a theme if you squash their exploration if the dice fall out wrong?
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don't want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

I recommend The RPG Pub as a friendly place where RPGs can be discussed and where the guiding principles of moderation are "be kind to each other" and "no politics". It's pretty chill so far.

J Arcane

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« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2007, 04:49:00 am »
Quote
To me, nothing is less likely to produce "art" than sitting down and declaring "this is Art because we are being Artistic!", and nothing is less likely to produce literature - or a literary narrative - by sitting down and saying "We're going to make Literature by adhering to a bunch of rules for making Literature that we've made up and are by no means universally agreed-on!" The central claim of Narrativism, however, is that through a systemised set of rules you can produce literary narratives.


Wow.  Light-bulb moment.  

I can't say as I'd made the connectiong before, between Forge theory and those "writing course" scams my mother is always buying, but I can see the connection now.

I've always tried to impress upon her that the only real training in writing is practice.  There's no magic course or theory or set of rules that will make you a better writer.  It's really just an juxtaposition of talent, and trial and error.  Reading a lot of other good books helps too.

Really I don't see it as being any different with writing an RPG, and certainly that approach has served the vast majority of RPG writers plenty find for a few decades now . . .
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Caesar Slaad

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« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2007, 11:13:19 am »
Quote from: Warthur
To me, nothing is less likely to produce "art" than sitting down and declaring "this is Art because we are being Artistic!", and nothing is less likely to produce literature - or a literary narrative - by sitting down and saying "We're going to make Literature by adhering to a bunch of rules for making Literature that we've made up and are by no means universally agreed-on!" The central claim of Narrativism, however, is that through a systemised set of rules you can produce literary narratives.


Whoa. That's almost sig-quotable. :cool:
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« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2007, 11:28:05 am »
Quote from: Caesar Slaad
Whoa. That's almost sig-quotable. :cool:
Yeah. If my big purple sig weren't all full of J Arcane's awesome stuff about GMs, I'd absolutely appropriate that.
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