Quote from: Glak on February 05, 2024, 01:06:15 AM
Out of 216 men...

Out of 64 women...

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 05, 2024, 12:55:25 AM
What is this obsession by judging it just by lifting standards? The carry weights for Str in D&D are ridiculously low. Combat soldiers carry more weight than D&D musclemen. Str is way more than those low lifting capacities, don't get hung up on a single metric.

It's mainly because it's one of the few statistics measurable in the real world (alongside IQ as a component of intelligence), so when trying to discuss statistics as relates to real life, something that actually translates over from game to the real world is going to be focused on.

Second, I focused on it precisely because, if the core game math is wrong then part of addressing the attribute numbers is in fixing those.

For example; AD&D's lifting capacity of 18/50 for women and 18/00 for men corresponded more or less to the weightlifting records at the time AD&D was being written. It's actually pretty good on that (also of note; AD&D limited your lifting relative to your body weight... if you wanted the carry capacity of an 18/50 strength in AD&D you were never going to be a 120lb. waif, but always a Brianne of Tarth).

The decision to slot BOTH into the exceptional strength range rather than, say, set the limit for women at 17 or an unexceptional 18 was a deliberate choice on their part to put both in the rarified air of being only available to fighters, paladins and rangers.

Worth noting too is that only at 18/51+ do the to-hit bonuses rise above +1 and 18/50 is only a +3 to damage vs. the +2 of an unexceptional 18. The upper bounds for a human male are another +2 to hit, another +3 to damage (so double), nearly triple the carry, nearly double the press, double the chances of bending bars/lifting gates, and opening doors on a 16 (and being able to open locked or barred doors on a 6) vs. only on a 12 (and no chance for locked or barred doors) of an 18/50.

Similarly, it wasn't your argument, but Glak's (I just hate multi-quoting from my phone) that we should ignore the numbers and just look at the ratios as if the dice probabilities are intended to reflect universal humanity and not the adventurer subset thereof is kinda a non-starter when you have something where exceptional strength is entirely limited to certain PC classes... meaning the overall population numbers are irrelevant... just the levels of Strength among the population of human fighters (a much smaller subset of the human whole where high strength is a prime requisite; which is a fancy way of saying that only people with an already high strength are going to be members; skewing the numbers).

A related issue is that Glak's interpretation of the Strength score variance requires a linear measure. Linearly 70% of an 18 is about a 13, but on a scale where Strength increased by 1.4x or more per point of Strength then a mere -1 penalty would be sufficient to cover the difference in maximum realistic male and female Strengths.*

In other words, until you have a scale to assign metrics to (i.e. what is Strength X vs. X+1) and a scope for what the population being measured is (i.e. are you using random dice for the entire population or just for PCs and similar "heroic-scale" individuals) the. arguing about the specific modifiers is just shibboleths.

* This also presumes a setting in which the ordinary laws of physics are in play vs. say a setting where even baseline humans are suffused with magic (or super-science) and all strength past human levels is supernatural. Once bare fists are shattering stone biology as we understand it has left the building and there's no reason a woman couldn't have as much of the Phlebotinum as a man does.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 05, 2024, 10:24:22 AMOnce bare fists are shattering stone biology as we understand it has left the building and there's no reason a woman couldn't have as much of the Phlebotinum as a man does.

It still has to have some affect though, or that world wouldn't have sexual dimorphism. There's no advantage to larger size and bigger muscles if tiny women can just be as strong.

Much like the Marvel U, Agent Carter when she takes the super soldier serum, she should be much less strong and athletic than Steve Rogers. Sure he starts are a runt, but he becomes a physically perfect MAN, and she becomes a perfect WOMAN. Big difference in maximum capabilities.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 05, 2024, 11:44:24 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 05, 2024, 10:24:22 AMOnce bare fists are shattering stone biology as we understand it has left the building and there's no reason a woman couldn't have as much of the Phlebotinum as a man does.

It still has to have some affect though, or that world wouldn't have sexual dimorphism. There's no advantage to larger size and bigger muscles if tiny women can just be as strong.

Much like the Marvel U, Agent Carter when she takes the super soldier serum, she should be much less strong and athletic than Steve Rogers. Sure he starts are a runt, but he becomes a physically perfect MAN, and she becomes a perfect WOMAN. Big difference in maximum capabilities.

Depends on the nature of the Phlobotonium.

If it had always been present in the environment and was present in everyone then sure it would result in a lack of sexual dimorphism.

If it was a relatively recent advent* and/or only selectively manifests** then one would not expect any significant differences in the traditional dimorphic appearances of human men and women even if the capabilities have been mostly erased by whatever magic/tech allows it.

* How many generations would it take to change what men and women find attractive in mates? Nature has proven mating advantages will be selected for even to the active detriment of other factors (ex. the peacock). One might even expect more dimorphism of appearance in regards to mating preferences if those appearances no longer proved counterproductive to other elements of survival.

** ex. only 1% of the population manifests "phlebotomic strength" and this manifestation is not genetic but environmental (ex. being blessed by a god or exposed to Lostech nanomachines) then one would expect normal sexual dimorphism to be the case.

As another example, in a setting where demigods exist, but you don't want to create a separate species for them (because demigodhood is mostly just very high stats), then one or more very high attributes might just represent a degree of the divine blood shining through that lets the demigod daughter of the god of strength be as strong as any man.

It's not "normal" but it's also not something so uncommon in a fantasy setting that you need a separate demigod race either. It's just the background reason for why some PCs have better stats than others.

But that's just one example for one potential setting... the point is it's not nearly as "one size fits all" for all settings as you're trying to make it.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 05, 2024, 11:44:24 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 05, 2024, 10:24:22 AMOnce bare fists are shattering stone biology as we understand it has left the building and there's no reason a woman couldn't have as much of the Phlebotinum as a man does.

It still has to have some affect though, or that world wouldn't have sexual dimorphism. There's no advantage to larger size and bigger muscles if tiny women can just be as strong.

Much like the Marvel U, Agent Carter when she takes the super soldier serum, she should be much less strong and athletic than Steve Rogers. Sure he starts are a runt, but he becomes a physically perfect MAN, and she becomes a perfect WOMAN. Big difference in maximum capabilities.

Well, I'm glad we have this reasonable real-world example to go by.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 05, 2024, 02:54:48 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 05, 2024, 11:44:24 AM

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 05, 2024, 10:24:22 AMOnce bare fists are shattering stone biology as we understand it has left the building and there's no reason a woman couldn't have as much of the Phlebotinum as a man does.

It still has to have some affect though, or that world wouldn't have sexual dimorphism. There's no advantage to larger size and bigger muscles if tiny women can just be as strong.

Much like the Marvel U, Agent Carter when she takes the super soldier serum, she should be much less strong and athletic than Steve Rogers. Sure he starts are a runt, but he becomes a physically perfect MAN, and she becomes a perfect WOMAN. Big difference in maximum capabilities.

Well, I'm glad we have this reasonable real-world example to go by.

Oh, the irony!

Quote from: pawsplay on February 05, 2024, 02:54:48 PMWell, I'm glad we have this reasonable real-world example to go by.

HIM: "Well if we assume the fantasy world has impossible reasons for strong women..."

ME: "Here's another example of a fantasy world with impossible strong women..."

You're right, paws, I don't know what I was thinking.

You utter buffoon.

Quote from: Chris24601 on February 05, 2024, 01:37:34 PMBut that's just one example for one potential setting... the point is it's not nearly as "one size fits all" for all settings as you're trying to make it.

I'd argue you're jumping through an awful lot of hoops just to justify strong women in fantasy. It's all fiction, so at the core it's always going to be personal preference. I think it wrecks verisimilitude, and straight out looks silly to have waifs beating hulks, so we'll have to agree to disagree. Which is fine.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 05, 2024, 11:44:24 AM
Much like the Marvel U, Agent Carter when she takes the super soldier serum, she should be much less strong and athletic than Steve Rogers. Sure he starts are a runt, but he becomes a physically perfect MAN, and she becomes a perfect WOMAN. Big difference in maximum capabilities.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 06, 2024, 10:56:46 AM
HIM: "Well if we assume the fantasy world has impossible reasons for strong women..."

ME: "Here's another example of a fantasy world with impossible strong women..."

There's no inherent logic to what an impossible super serum does. It could have made Agent Carter into a super-sexy seductress who can birth eight babies at once while making a hundred sandwiches, or it could have made Agent Carter into a powerhouse even stronger than Steve Rogers, or maybe it doesn't work on her at all and it only affects men. The super serum isn't a logical extrapolation of real-world biology, it's pure fantasy.

In fantasy worlds that are close to reality, women should be significantly less strong than men. A woman can't go toe-to-toe in hand-to-hand combat with a healthy fighting man, but likewise, a man can't go toe-to-toe in hand-to-hand combat with a rhino or dragon.

A key problem for game design is how to reflect this in a fair way. In random-roll, the obvious choice is to make gender random. Then everyone gets the same chance to have a strength penalty. If you allow selecting gender, then there should be some options that make men and women equally balanced game choices. HarnMaster, for example, gives a size and strength penalty to women, but it gives them a bonus to the Aura stat that reflects magic potential.

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 06, 2024, 10:56:46 AM

Quote from: pawsplay on February 05, 2024, 02:54:48 PMWell, I'm glad we have this reasonable real-world example to go by.

HIM: "Well if we assume the fantasy world has impossible reasons for strong women..."

ME: "Here's another example of a fantasy world with impossible strong women..."

You're right, paws, I don't know what I was thinking.

You utter buffoon.

You act like the second example proves your thesis. But it's something you made up, which assumes agreement with your position. This is the logical fallacy of begging the question.

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2024, 03:05:30 PM

In fantasy worlds that are close to reality, women should be significantly less strong than men.

In fantasy words that are close to reality, women are significantly less strong than men. I'm not sure what the phrase "should be" is doing in this sentence. Do you mean it would be better if they were?

Certainly, it has no bearing on whether this character should be stronger than that character. Chinese men are shorter than African-American men. But that doesn't mean Shaquille O'Neal "should be" taller than Yao Ming. Yao Ming is the height he is.

Quote from: pawsplay on February 06, 2024, 06:55:10 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2024, 03:05:30 PM
In fantasy worlds that are close to reality, women should be significantly less strong than men.

In fantasy words that are close to reality, women are significantly less strong than men. I'm not sure what the phrase "should be" is doing in this sentence. Do you mean it would be better if they were?

Certainly, it has no bearing on whether this character should be stronger than that character. Chinese men are shorter than African-American men. But that doesn't mean Shaquille O'Neal "should be" taller than Yao Ming. Yao Ming is the height he is.

No, I just meant that in reality, human women are significantly smaller and less strong than men. There is only a bit of overlap in the bell curves. Fantasy settings can differ from reality in however they want. I'm not saying any particular change is better or worse.

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2024, 03:05:30 PM
There's no inherent logic to what an impossible super serum does. It could have made Agent Carter into a super-sexy seductress who can birth eight babies at once while making a hundred sandwiches, or it could have made Agent Carter into a powerhouse even stronger than Steve Rogers, or maybe it doesn't work on her at all and it only affects men. The super serum isn't a logical extrapolation of real-world biology, it's pure fantasy.

It makes you into a perfect human being, that's what it does. Steve (at least the comics version) is as strong, fast and tough as a man can be and still be human. Think someone with every good gene combo turned on, and everything bad turned off.

A physically perfect woman is going to be stronger and tougher than most men, but elite males could overpower her, and she'd be much weaker than Steve. I've actually argued that a physically perfect woman would be an Amazon with big boobs and wide hips, evolutionarily speaking.

The only reason Agent Carter just turns into Steve with breasts is because we live in an age where we pretend sexual dimorphism is no big deal.

Greetings!

Yeah, because women are so strong and brave!!!

Then you watch some uber-buffed woman get the stomping shit beat out of her and she gets fucking crushed by a MAN in less than 60 fucking seconds. Sometimes, just one or two strikes, and the broad hits the fucking floor like a sack of shit, OUT STONE COLD. Or she just lays there, sobbing.

Give me a fucking break. All these fucking Feminists and "Male Feminists" are fucking morons, and so silly they are stupid as fuck. It's so ridiculous how out of fucking reality they are, it can't help but to be hilarious.

In my required Women's Studies classes in university, I used to fucking LAUGH at my woman professsor, allegedly a PH D!!!!--*Laughing* How fucking nuts is it to state something that a BIOLOGIST from the Science department would absolutely contradict? But there you go. Fucking PHD women Feminist professors get to stand up there at the podium in front of the class and tell these students that "Women are just as strong as men!"

That's a fucking LIE. That's also a fucking FANTASY. Somehow though, the university continues to hire and employ these fucking Feminist frauds that lie to their students every fucking day, promoting absolute bullshit.

As far as our game worlds go, well, there is believable fantasy, and silly, stupid fantasy.

Dragons, vampires, werewolves--they are believable fantasy.

140-lb waifu women beating the fuck out of a man--let alone three or four men at the same time--becomes silly, stupid fantasy. It is so stupid that it can break a person's enjoyment of the game. Unless you are some moron fucking Feminist, then you can diddle yourself into a frenzy at the thought.

For most normal people though, the stupid factor gets too high, and game enjoyment suffers.

That's why it is important to think about things like verisimilitude in the game. Boundaries and physics and logic must to a large degree remain consistent with actual real-world reality and TRUTH.

Of course, if you are running some kind of silly cartoon superheroes game, then knock yourself the fuck out. Go hog fucking wild! Superhero games are known for being silly and stupidly fantastic though. In medieval fantasy games, yeah, a more or less mythological world that is consistent with the real world is the best approach.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

Quote from: Grognard GM on February 06, 2024, 08:40:41 PM

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2024, 03:05:30 PM
There's no inherent logic to what an impossible super serum does. It could have made Agent Carter into a super-sexy seductress who can birth eight babies at once while making a hundred sandwiches, or it could have made Agent Carter into a powerhouse even stronger than Steve Rogers, or maybe it doesn't work on her at all and it only affects men. The super serum isn't a logical extrapolation of real-world biology, it's pure fantasy.

It makes you into a perfect human being, that's what it does. Steve (at least the comics version) is as strong, fast and tough as a man can be and still be human. Think someone with every good gene combo turned on, and everything bad turned off.

There's no such thing as "good" genes and "bad" genes biologically, nor "perfect". The "perfect" human depends on what qualities you are optimizing for. Top-ranked weightlifters are physically different and have different genes from top-ranked gymnasts, who in turn are different than top-ranked distance swimmers.

It's a superhero comic, so it doesn't have to follow real-world biology - but that just goes back to what I said. What is the "perfection" depends on what one is optimizing for. One could argue that perfection would include being a fertile true hermaphrodite - thus not lacking any capability in reproduction.

Quote from: jhkim on February 06, 2024, 07:31:29 PMThere is only a bit of overlap in the bell curves.

Among competitive lifters, the top 10% of women are as strong as the bottom 10% of men. Men's numbers here, women's here (the overlap is in the 360-380kg total range, eg squat 130kg, bench 90kg, deadlift 150kg).

However, it's important to note that this is competitive lifters, so a few considerations,

Firstly, there are fewer women competing in strength sports than there are men. That's why we regularly see women's records broken, but not so often men's. Same for older lifters, throwers, jumpers, sprinters and so on.

Secondly, while 90% of competitive male lifters will be stronger than all female lifters, untrained males it'll be smaller. The median for the women competitors is a 280kg total - say, 100kg squat, 50kg bench, 130kg deadlift, something like that. Previously untrained males - no sports or martial arts etc behind them - maybe a few can squeeze out the bench press, but they can't do that squat or deadlift. If they've got some sport behind them then a good number of them can do it. So - the average trained woman will be stronger than probably 80% of the average untrained males out there. This greatly hurts the ego of all the male geeks, but there it is.

Thirdly, for similar reasons to above, the trained male will be stronger than probably 99% of women. Even the bottom 1% of trained males can total 200-220, something like a 80kg squat, 50kg bench and 80kg deadlift. Probably only 1% of untrained women can do that - a few of the bigger girls with PCOS or something.

Most people don't realise just how weak the general population is, and how strong trained people are. And it's very difficult to discuss with gamers, because only the males are really interested in discussing it, and males have very, very delicate egos. If you doubt this, go look at the comments on women's lifting videos on InstaSham or YouseTube. 

None of which has any relevance whatsoever to a game about elves and fireballs, of course. It may be relevant to a modern realistic game, but if people wanted to play modern realistic games then the rpg hobby would look very, very different, and the typical gamer wouldn't be able to keep their character alive for five minutes.