That's fine, I'm cool just embarrassing you with facts and exposing your blatant cherry-picking and hypocrisy.

Quote from: pawsplay on January 16, 2024, 09:14:47 PM
That's fine, I'm cool just embarrassing you with facts and exposing your blatant cherry-picking and hypocrisy.

Quote from: Grognard GM on January 16, 2024, 09:21:32 PM

Quote from: pawsplay on January 16, 2024, 09:14:47 PM
That's fine, I'm cool just embarrassing you with facts and exposing your blatant cherry-picking and hypocrisy.

Ignore the troll.  It argues the way that most delusional leftists do nowadays:  a single exception disproves what you say, yet a single exception serves as incontrovertible proof of what they say.  You can ignore reality, but you can't ignore the consequences of ignoring reality (as many women and "women" have discovered).

Case in point.  I've played ice hockey for decades in both high and low division amateur leagues, but I'm a complete amateur (never played in high school or college).  About ten years ago I was in the lowest division of the local beer league.  Our team didn't have a single person who played in college or high school.  An all women's  team joined the division for two seasons.  They had several women who played in travel and select leagues, three who played in college (two in Div 1), and the team as a whole had won two national invitational women's tournaments.  They went 0 and 52 in a division 5 no-check league.  They didn't win a single game, and it wasn't even ever close, against men who averaged twice their age (the women were in their twenties, while our ages ranged from twenties to fifties).  Had it been a checking league, they'd have been slaughtered even worse.

So when I see someone who I can guarantee has never come closer to playing a sport than pushing buttons on an Xbox controller make declarative statements about the capabilities of men and women in competition, I don't even try to debate them.  It's like debating a flat-earther.  The healthiest response is to point and laugh.  We're talking about people that think hormones and surgery can turn a man into a woman (as opposed to the mutilated and sterilized male you actually get).  They are impervious to reality.

As to the OP, I think you'd need to take into account the Greater Variability Hypothesis.  So, male characters would roll 3d6 for stats, whereas women would roll 2d6+4.  Men are over-represented at both the top and the bottom of the bell curve, and the top of just about every profession, even those traditionally thought of as feminine (like cooking), is dominated by males.  This is an obvious result of evolutionary selection, as males are less important biologically than women (reproductively) and therefore more genetic variability is not a threat to the species.  So women's bell curve should be narrower than males.

Quote from: Grognard GM on January 16, 2024, 10:51:14 AMM Weightlifting Total   488 kg
F Weightlifting Total   320 kg

One of the things I was wondering is how steroids have altered maximum weight lifts. Obviously, it helps both sides, but I've seen some completely unnatural female physiques that wouldn't be possible without drugs. Has steroids increased the maximum weight liftable by men by the same percentage as it has helped women?

IOW are the beefy strong women we see today even possible without advanced drugs? [I'm talking a fantasy setting rather than a sci-fi or cyberpunk one]

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 17, 2024, 12:20:28 AMSo when I see someone who I can guarantee has never come closer to playing a sport than pushing buttons on an Xbox controller make declarative statements about the capabilities of men and women in competition, I don't even try to debate them.

Don't forget the all-female League of Legends team Vaevictis. A team so bad they went 0-28, had the record for the fastest loss ever, and were kick out after one season. So men are better than women at button pushing too.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 17, 2024, 08:22:10 AM

Quote from: Eirikrautha on January 17, 2024, 12:20:28 AMSo when I see someone who I can guarantee has never come closer to playing a sport than pushing buttons on an Xbox controller make declarative statements about the capabilities of men and women in competition, I don't even try to debate them.

Don't forget the all-female League of Legends team Vaevictis. A team so bad they went 0-28, had the record for the fastest loss ever, and were kick out after one season. So men are better than women at button pushing to.

Something something Patriarchy, something something not every woman on Earth has played video games so you can't assume they're inferior, something something here's a Trans-Woman who is competitive so women are great at games.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 17, 2024, 08:16:15 AM

Quote from: Grognard GM on January 16, 2024, 10:51:14 AMM Weightlifting Total   488 kg
F Weightlifting Total   320 kg

One of the things I was wondering is how steroids have altered maximum weight lifts. Obviously, it helps both sides, but I've seen some completely unnatural female physiques that wouldn't be possible without drugs. Has steroids increased the maximum weight liftable by men by the same percentage as it has helped women?

IOW are the beefy strong women we see today even possible without advanced drugs? [I'm talking a fantasy setting rather than a sci-fi or cyberpunk one]

Well, first of all, competitive powerlifting doesn't allow you to use "advanced drugs." That's not necessarily true in bodybuilding, modeling, or entertainment, but when you see a verified world record, it means the person has been screened for steroid use, HGH, and various other factors for a long time. If a female's athletes testosterone is outside the statistically normal range, they sometimes have to get a doctor's note attesting that's their natural levels. In a couple of cases, female athletes have actually been ordered to reduce their natural testosterone levels to compete, which, frankly, I find disturbing.

Second of all, in a fantasy, medieval-type setting, you wouldn't see men that look like modern ripped athletes. Back then, people didn't usually shred, they bulked and exercised. These days, you can eat a hamburger every day, or go down to the vitamin shop and have a superfood smoothie and pick up a barrel of whey, which means the average person has access to nutrition, particularly protein, people didn't used to. Combined with modern knowledge of exercise and health, and a modern weekend warrior can relatively easily achieve the physique of a knight or a gladiator. If you look at world records, you'll notice they tend to go just up and up and up... this is not purely for statistical reasons. The gains are often, but not always, diminishing. but now and then they just shoot up, when an exceptional athlete or a new training or performance method pushes beyond what was previously thought possible. And part of achieving something that has never been done before is just to believe you can. Modern people have just became capable of more and more powerful feats over the last century. The carrying weight of a modern soldier's gear is often over a hundred pounds!

So it's hard to make comparisons. Most modern people would be pretty hopeless at wearing forty pounds of mail for a two mile hike, then fighting for thirty minutes with swords and spears. But on the other hand, we all know casual marathon runners, people who regularly perform a feat that might have killed many medieval peasants.

Quote from: Grognard GM on January 16, 2024, 05:50:49 PM
Let's look at Army fitness standards for the sexes.

Interesting.

Now link us to the Army fitness standards for elves, dwarves and halflings.

Quote from: hedgehobbit on January 17, 2024, 08:16:15 AMOne of the things I was wondering is how steroids have altered maximum weight lifts. Obviously, it helps both sides, but I've seen some completely unnatural female physiques that wouldn't be possible without drugs. Has steroids increased the maximum weight liftable by men by the same percentage as it has helped women?

In both cases it's about 10% overall. We know this because that's the variation between tested and untested powerlifting etc leagues. Of course, there'll be some drug users in the tested leagues, but there are also non-drug users in the untested leagues, which are generally more welcoming anyway.

Here are the women's tested records for powerlifting:
https://goodlift.info/records.php?fd=0&ac=0&sx=W&eq=1

and you can compare with the records for an untested federation, GPC (you want the "raw, no wraps" to make it comparable):-
https://www.openpowerlifting.org/records/raw/women

The weight categories don't match perfectly but you can get the idea. For middleweight women - about 60-65kg - the tested WR squat is about 212kg, and untested 230. Bench is 144 and and 140. Deadlift is 240 and 245.

Looking at the men's for middleweight of 80-90kg we see squat 320 vs 350, bench 220 vs 230, and deadlift is tied at 380.

When you dig into the numbers you'll see there's little or no difference at the lighter bodyweights, and a bigger difference at the higher ones - but overall it's about 10%. The thing about anabolic steroids is that mostly they make you bigger, so the 60kg lifter becomes a 67.5kg lifter - and is now competing against people bigger than they used to be, and therefore stronger. But once you get into the higher bodyweights everyone is big anyway, so that's where extra kgs from food or drugs make a difference.

The women's world records vs the men's, by the way, the women's totals are about 75-80% those of the men's of the same bodyweight. I'd note though that women's records are knocked over more often than men's, because they have overall lower participation. It's the same with master's athletics meets - there aren't many 80 year olds running marathons.

I'd note too that even if a woman achieves half the female world record, she'll still be stronger than the vast majority of males, including males in the typical gym. Because most people don't train. Yeah, yeah, I know every bloke reading this "used to bench about tree fiddy in college." 

But again, we're talking about reality, not a game and other fantasies.

QuoteIOW are the beefy strong women we see today even possible without advanced drugs?

Since you're speaking of Crossfit, a sport which is not actually tested (despite their protestations to the contrary) not in reality, no. But the same goes for the males. You look for example at someone like Steve Reeves, who was prominent before anabolic steroids became a thing in the US (1960 and later). A physique like his is nowadays pretty standard among male movie stars and athletes - even actors who aren't doing action movies or strength-oriented sports. Or you look at someone like Christian Bale who went from 110 to 240lb in less than 18 months between movies.

It's just that we've been seeing male physiques massively enhanced by drugs for about sixty years now, but only really seen female physiques similarly enhanced for 10-20 years. It's so standard for male athletes and actors that we can pretend it's "natural"; but we apply a more critical eye to females actors and athletes. If I say, "Henry Cavill used drugs to prepare for Superman," someone will appear and get butthurt and start screaming. If I say that of Colleen Fotsch the Crossfitter, nobody will care except her press agent.

Natural or drugged, men will generally be bigger than women. But a lot more men are drugged than we like to admit. It's basically expected now that if a man wants an action role, he needs to do 3-6 months of lifting 6 hours a day and drugs. And then he stops. That's why in the promo interviews as the movie comes out he's noticeably smaller, and you've no chance in hell of seeing him shirtless.

None of which is relevant to a game about elves, dwarves, halflings and Magic Missiles, of course. As a DM, I'd say, "You want realism? Cool. You're going to get it. Magic won't work for your character. And you'll never have more than 3 hit dice. Enjoy your slow healing times."

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 17, 2024, 09:37:44 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on January 16, 2024, 05:50:49 PM
Let's look at Army fitness standards for the sexes.

Interesting.

Now link us to the Army fitness standards for elves, dwarves and halflings.

https://www.military.ie/en/careers/faqs/defence-forces-fitness-testing/

https://health.nzdf.mil.nz/your-health/body/nzdf-testing-and-sports/army-service-testing/

https://www.topendsports.com/testing/work/army/canada.htm

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 17, 2024, 10:09:07 PMI'd note too that even if a woman achieves half the female world record, she'll still be stronger than the vast majority of males, including males in the typical gym.

I'd love to see a source for a woman half as strong as the Female WR being stronger than the average gym bro.

I'd not because D&D is not a game that really needs it, or would get better from it.
For some more social-political-intrigue-low life game I could make some adjustments - sometimes to piss wokesters, sometimes to piss anti-wokesters, sometimes for my own amusement.
But for my beholder-rust monster-glabrezu frat party I think I have no need of it.

Quote from: Grognard GM on January 17, 2024, 10:58:07 PM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 17, 2024, 10:09:07 PMI'd note too that even if a woman achieves half the female world record, she'll still be stronger than the vast majority of males, including males in the typical gym.

I'd love to see a source for a woman half as strong as the Female WR being stronger than the average gym bro.

Have you met an average gym bro?

Quote from: pawsplay on January 18, 2024, 07:01:36 PM

Quote from: Grognard GM on January 17, 2024, 10:58:07 PM

Quote from: Kyle Aaron on January 17, 2024, 10:09:07 PMI'd note too that even if a woman achieves half the female world record, she'll still be stronger than the vast majority of males, including males in the typical gym.

I'd love to see a source for a woman half as strong as the Female WR being stronger than the average gym bro.

Have you met an average gym bro?

Since testosterone is the equivalent of Holy Water to you, don't BS. Any inherent knowledge of masculinity you were born with has long ago been murdered, and no one has any interest in the cartoon version of reality you reside in.