Really, in all the rants against "indie" games I somewhat understood when games like Capes and Universalis were called "not-RPGs." There was no GM, roles exchange hands freely scene by scene, there is no such thing as "my guy." I even understood it somewhat with games like My Life with Master, where there is a set end condition and even a way to "win" and "lose" (kind of).

But Dogs in the Vineyard... How in the heck is it not an RPG? You have a party of characters, one per player, a GM who sets up a scenario, and the PCs try to solve the problems of the scenario. Hell, replace "town" with "dungeon" and "remove sin" with "kill the monsters" and you have D&D.

For that matter, how is Sorcerer not an RPG? The only really radical element there is writing the kicker...

I foresee much sophistry in your future.

Quote from: droogI foresee much sophistry in your future.

You mean from me or at me?

At you. Let me see if I can do it.

RPGs are defined by the first RPG, i.e. D&D. Since D&D has a central GM with unlimited authority, any game not exhibiting this factor is not an RPG. DitV instructs the GM to 'Say yes or roll the dice'. Therefore, it diffuses the centralised authority of the GM and thus is not an RPG.

Sorcerer, of course, is just as bad, since it instructs the GM to prep towards the players' Kickers. Also, it is written by a man who says roleplayers are brain-damaged. QED.

Quote from: droogAt you. Let me see if I can do it.

RPGs are defined by the first RPG, i.e. D&D. Since D&D has a central GM with unlimited authority, any game not exhibiting this factor is not an RPG. DitV instructs the GM to 'Say yes or roll the dice'. Therefore, it diffuses the centralised authority of the GM and thus is not an RPG.

Sorcerer, of course, is just as bad, since it instructs the GM to prep towards the players' Kickers. Also, it is written by a man who says roleplayers are brain-damaged. QED.

Heheheheh... As funny as that is to me, I'd kind of like to hear it from someone who actually believes it too. I mean, I don't think I'll ever agree with the opinion, but I would like to understand it.

Although you do a pretty good impression, I'll give you that. Focusing any conversations about Sorcerer into a conversation about the author? Genius.

Well, it seems to be mostly about identity politics and bruised feelings, so I don't think it's hard to understand. To sympathise, on the other hand – that's difficult.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKaZH1_Psdg&mode=related&search=

Is that your Dog's gun?

Quote from: droogIs that your Dog's gun?

Hell no - MY dog carries a Walker Colt!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ONhgVHs5wYI

D8s Baby!









Which is to say I live in the UK, and so more admire guns from afar than play with them.

How about this.

If I "game the system" in Dogs as hard as I possibly can, while still keeping to the letter of the rules, I will become unbeatable in short order.  I do this by creating a list of dump traits, broadly useful, at 1d4.  I deliberately eat as much low-end fallout as possible, driving added d4's onto those traits.  When the first one hits 5d4, I start jumping up the die type and adding dice to the next one; I spend as much of my fallout as possible in this fashion.  Within four or five high-conflict sessions (and I will call for conflict ALL THE TIME), I have a nice stack of six or so traits at 5d10 each.

As a gamey-game, the rules do not stop me from doing this.

I don't do this because that's boring as shit.  See, Dogs mainly entertains me in ways that are not about being a gamey-game.

...

...And that's where some people latch on and start jumping up and down.  That last sentence:

See, Dogs mainly entertains me in ways that are not about being a gamey-game.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenAs a gamey-game, the rules do not stop me from doing this.

I don't do this because that's boring as shit.

I'm not sure if that is different in principle than ruling out the Hulking Hurler, Pun-Pun the Kobold, or the Omniscificer.  

Links:
Hulking Hurler Build
Pun-Pun the Kobold
The Omniscificer

:hyper:
Definition Thread?
Yes, Yes?!

Of course it's an rpg! It's just that it's a depressing and boring rpg. :gloomy:

Reading the rules, I wish there were a way to interrupt one conflict with another, instead of just allowing new arrivals to toss some dice into the pool of their choice.

But I haven't played it yet, so that opinion means fuck all.

Quote from: fonkaygarryReading the rules, I wish there were a way to interrupt one conflict with another, instead of just allowing new arrivals to toss some dice into the pool of their choice.

But I haven't played it yet, so that opinion means fuck all.

Wow. I was going to chime in with "DitV is one of those things I'm cool with calling an RPG. It's a really, really, hyper-focused one with one character style and a self-proclaimed "heavy shit" emphasis I don't need, but still an RPG", but...you can't interrupt a conflict with another? If two Dogs are arguing in a room and, let's say, a third Dog wrestling with a thief he caught come crashing through the window to the floor...what? They have to keep arguing while the other keeps fighting unless someone gives in? Their argument dice spill over onto the fight? The fight dice spill into the argument?

I haven't played it either, but unless this is different than I'm reading it;

PAGING D. VINCENT BAKER. Please pick up the white courtesy phone and finish your fucking game. PAGING D. VINCENT BAKER.