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Author Topic: Holocaust/Shoah RPG: "We All Had Names".  (Read 16770 times)

Kyle Aaron

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Holocaust/Shoah RPG: "We All Had Names".
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2007, 10:38:45 AM »
I think it's time for me to preach the One True Way of gaming: Cheetoism

   The Cheetoist Philosophy

We game for the snacks. And also the dice. But mostly, just to hang out with friends and tell tall stories.

Rpg books are just a bunch of guidelines for how to tell your tall stories, and give you a fair excuse to roll lots of dice and eat cheetos. To make your games more fun, talk to your group.

[...]

My purpose with this wiki is to provide practical advice to roleplaying gamers in support of the Cheetoist philosophy. If you game purely for the game itself, for competition, as group therapy, or education, then you are a crazy person and should go elsewhere.
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Matthijs Holter

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Holocaust/Shoah RPG: "We All Had Names".
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2007, 10:58:53 AM »
Quote from: Settembrini
Is your project meant as an unsupervised leisure activity?


Yes, definitely. However, it will also be possible to use for educational purposes, for example.

I need to emphasize again, though, that it is not meant as fun or entertainment. In the same way that the comic book "Maus" isn't meant as fun or entertainment, although many comic books are; and in the same way that "Der Untergang" isn't, although many movies are.

And, again, I completely understand that many people who see RPGs as primarily a source of fun and entertainment wouldn't participate in Kristallnacht.
 

Matthijs Holter

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Holocaust/Shoah RPG: "We All Had Names".
« Reply #32 on: June 22, 2007, 11:07:12 AM »
Quote from: -E.
I wasn't able to make heads or tails out of your blog; what were you looking for with this post?


I'm hoping for specific feedback from those who read the blog and/or play the games. I see that I need to provide better descriptions of the games; I'll post them on the blog tonight or tomorrow.

Quote
My immediate reaction is that this is treacherous terrain. When making a game or any kind of entertainment you run a risk of trivializing your subject matter.


That is very true, and I agree that I need more people to look at it from many angles. This is another reason to post about the project here. I don't know most people here, and will get direct and noncensored feedback. I will also be contacting non-RPGers, will talk more to people with a Jewish background, and establish contact with institutions that work with Holocaust history.

Quote
One more thought: No one undertakes a project like this without some kind of agenda -- what's yours?


That's very hard to answer. The idea, since I first got it, has stuck in my mind and won't go away. I think it is primarily a project of learning, of trying to understand and get to grips with something that for me, personally, is probably the most incomprehensible part of our history. It is a way for me to learn, and hopefully help others to learn as well.
 

Pseudoephedrine
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« Reply #33 on: June 22, 2007, 11:09:30 AM »
If it's not fun, then it won't do very well. On the other hand, it's important to have a sufficiently broad and robust conception of what "fun" is. There are plenty of kinds of mediated satisfaction that we conventionally refer to as "fun" that aren't obviously and immediately pleasurable. This game may be one such type of fun (as are most competitive sports, or the movie Requiem for a Dream, or the critical analysis of a paper on Kant, for example).
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The Pernicious Light, or The Wreckers of Sword Island;
A Goblin's Progress, or Of Cannons and Canons;
An Oration on the Dignity of Tash, or On the Elves and Their Lies
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Playing: Dark Heresy, WFRP 2e

"Elves don't want you cutting down trees but they sell wood items, they don't care about the forests, they''re the fuckin' wood mafia." -Anonymous

Kyle Aaron

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« Reply #34 on: June 22, 2007, 11:10:14 AM »
Quote from: Matthijs Holter
And, again, I completely understand that many people who see RPGs as primarily a source of fun and entertainment wouldn't participate in Kristallnacht.

...

So it's not only our North American friends who are oblivious to the humour of understatement and irony?
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Matthijs Holter

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« Reply #35 on: June 22, 2007, 11:13:10 AM »
Quote from: TonyLB
First:  They can be offended by the mere notion of making a game about this. (...) Second:  They can be offended by the actual game when it is produced.


Good points.

The first part I have little control over; the only thing I can do is try to present the project, the methods and the subject matter clearly, and let people make up their own minds.

The main problem, as I see it, is that if I call it a "game", the connotations of that word aren't all applicable to We All Had Names. It might be better for all involved if I call it an "interactive story" or similar, to show there are no win conditions, it's not primarily a "fun" activity, it's not about using game systems against each other etc.

The second part is much more my responsibility. So far, those who have played the game haven't been offended - it seems to have been a learning experience, something that spawns further thought and debate about the Shoah/Holocaust.

I am at all times trying to show the appropriate respect to the subject matter and the people involved.
 

Matthijs Holter

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« Reply #36 on: June 22, 2007, 11:15:17 AM »
Quote from: JimBobOz
So it's not only our North American friends who are oblivious to the humour of understatement and irony?


I'm sure you understand that the only way for me to talk about this project right now is by being completely serious at all times. Forgive me if that means some of my posts are unintentionally funny. I'm walking in a minefield here, and must try to communicate as clearly as I can.
 

Matthijs Holter

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« Reply #37 on: June 22, 2007, 11:16:31 AM »
Quote from: JimBobOz
I think it's time for me to preach the One True Way of gaming: Cheetoism


(I've heard of Cheetoism before - in fact, I've posted about your page elsewhere, it's good. Of course, this project is as far from Cheetoism as you can get.)
 

Pseudoephedrine
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« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2007, 11:25:30 AM »
Quote from: Matthijs Holter
I'm sure you understand that the only way for me to talk about this project right now is by being completely serious at all times. Forgive me if that means some of my posts are unintentionally funny. I'm walking in a minefield here, and must try to communicate as clearly as I can.


I don't know how it goes in Europe these days, but you should take a less reverential and deferential tone towards the subject matter. If you're going to use the Holocaust, use it to do something interesting, not just another "Jewish people being killed is bad and I feel sorry for them" thing - which isn't actually "thought or debate on the Holocaust" except in the tritest way.

By contrast with this deference-pretending-to-be-insight, you should check out Primo Levi and Giorgio Agamben (both Italians).
Running
The Pernicious Light, or The Wreckers of Sword Island;
A Goblin's Progress, or Of Cannons and Canons;
An Oration on the Dignity of Tash, or On the Elves and Their Lies
All for S&W Complete
Playing: Dark Heresy, WFRP 2e

"Elves don't want you cutting down trees but they sell wood items, they don't care about the forests, they''re the fuckin' wood mafia." -Anonymous

Kyle Aaron

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Holocaust/Shoah RPG: "We All Had Names".
« Reply #39 on: June 22, 2007, 11:26:12 AM »
If it's not a game, what's it doing here in the Game Design and Theory Forum?

You don't get to call it a "roleplaying game" when you're asking for feedback, and then if someone says that making it a "game" trivialises it, say, "oh but it's not a game, anyway." You can't have it both ways.

Either it's a game, in which case it's necessarily superficial and triviliasing and insulting, or else it's not a game, in which case it doesn't belong in roleplaying game forums.

It's offensive to me as a Jew because it's trivialising and a shallow bit of intellectual masturbation. It's offensive to me as a roleplayer because it's not fun.

If you want strong emotions and "to understand", then go and have a life. Join the Red Cross and go and help out in Darfur, Sudan, or something. Fall in love and get your heart broken. Smuggle yourself into a country as an illegal immigrant and struggle to live on one-fifth minimum wage while evading immigration authorities. Forget your "interactive story" - live a real life with real fears, real loves, real hates, real passions.

No Jew would ever write this thing, any more than a woman would write one about rape victims. I think that tells you something.
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Pseudoephedrine
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« Reply #40 on: June 22, 2007, 11:34:31 AM »
Hold on there, JB. I know Jews who would write RPGs about the Holocaust. Now they might not write this RPG, but the topic of the Holocaust is not off-limits to RPGs.
Running
The Pernicious Light, or The Wreckers of Sword Island;
A Goblin's Progress, or Of Cannons and Canons;
An Oration on the Dignity of Tash, or On the Elves and Their Lies
All for S&W Complete
Playing: Dark Heresy, WFRP 2e

"Elves don't want you cutting down trees but they sell wood items, they don't care about the forests, they''re the fuckin' wood mafia." -Anonymous

Matthijs Holter

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Holocaust/Shoah RPG: "We All Had Names".
« Reply #41 on: June 22, 2007, 11:38:40 AM »
I've tried to explain the project in brief here.

JimBobOz, what is your opinion of films, comics novels about the Holocaust?
 

Matthijs Holter

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Holocaust/Shoah RPG: "We All Had Names".
« Reply #42 on: June 22, 2007, 11:43:47 AM »
Quote from: Pseudoephedrine
If you're going to use the Holocaust, use it to do something interesting, not just another "Jewish people being killed is bad and I feel sorry for them" thing - which isn't actually "thought or debate on the Holocaust" except in the tritest way.


I'm hoping to do that with the third game, How Not To Care; the main point there is to understand the reasons why so many didn't interfere with the events, and then see whether we use those same reasons not to interfere in real-world crises today.

Quote
By contrast with this deference-pretending-to-be-insight, you should check out Primo Levi and Giorgio Agamben (both Italians).


Thanks for the pointers! I certainly will!
 

TonyLB

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« Reply #43 on: June 22, 2007, 11:44:25 AM »
Quote from: JimBobOz
No Jew would ever write this thing, any more than a woman would write one about rape victims. I think that tells you something.
Man, I think that using your jewish identity as an ideological bludgeon that way is very poor form.  You do not speak for all jews.
Superheroes with heart:  Capes!

Kyle Aaron

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« Reply #44 on: June 22, 2007, 11:44:28 AM »
I said Jews would not write "this thing." It's not an rpg, he says.

And maybe you know Jews who'd write an rpg about the Holocaust - they say. Well, let's see them do it, then. Lots of people think and say they'd be okay doing something - then when they go to do it, it's a different matter.

"I totally would do it... just, um, I have to wash my hair tonight."

Mattijs is Norwegian, yeah? So he could write an rpg about the German occupation of his country and Quisling and his buddies. "Let's explore collaborating with the Gestapo to drag dissenters off to basements and beat them to death with rubber hoses. Just to make it extra real, we'll get you to roleplay your grandmother, she was alive then, yeah?"

But I guess that "experience" wouldn't be vicarious enough for him. He needs a bit of distance.
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