Quote from: jibbajibba;638224I totally want the Divine magic to be more open and free form and I had thought that asking for miracles too often would have a cost so this kind of works. However, my sticking point is how to provide a granular system that is still free form, enough options that miracles aren't always Angel Summoning (tm) but can't just be do whatever I like.

As a basis it's not really possible to get simpler than (stuff)(effect on stuff), like (fire)(create). Any more straightforward and you end up with basically a list of spells or GM judgement.

Maybe look at differentiating religious powers in different ways instead?

Quote from: The Traveller;638306As a basis it's not really possible to get simpler than (stuff)(effect on stuff), like (fire)(create). Any more straightforward and you end up with basically a list of spells or GM judgement.

Maybe look at differentiating religious powers in different ways instead?

Which is my issue right

If it was simple then I wouldn't need to ask you guys

So to step up the the Meta level which might help explain my position

i) Wizard magic is formulaic and predictable but quite flexible. Mana limits it strongly a single very powerful spell may use 50% or more of a 6 or 7th level wizard's mana pool. In this regard its supposed to make the wizard a glass cannon but one that also has a multi-tool in his back pocket for small stuff.

ii) Summoning is something you do as prep, up front. It's powerful but its not as flexible in play as you have to spend an hour or more summoning and binding a creature. You can just summon one at random and hope it's not you it attacks but that is the hail mary. Mostly Summoners have creatures bound to certain tasks this includes binding them into objects or places etc. So summoning might well be said to be more of an NPC power.

iii) Alchemists create items mostly potions at low to mid levels though the same magic type can be used to make magical weapons and armour if you have the raw materials. As you level you get more knowledge about what certain minerals and materials and plants do and how to mix them. It's supposed to mimic some of the craft skills you see in computer RPGs. Again its kind of more an NPC skill although there is no reason why a PC couldn't be doing this though they may choose to take a hybrid archetype like the Montebank who is a rogue with Alchemy skills who spends a lot of time trying to flog potions and universal elixiers, some of which might actually work.

So two magic type are largely NPC focused I need a second adventure focused magic. I had 3 options and originally I going to have 6 magics as its iconic. The other options were -
i) Chi based - internal magic that creates an eastern mystic/psi kind of vibe. I rejected it simply because of time. I think it has lots of potential even if its a bit hackneyed. The magic would focus on buffing the caster so in effect would be a kind of combat mage. This of itself creates an oddity as fighters in the system are much better at combat that magi. If the effect of Chi magic was to make the magi as good as a warrior then why not just be a warrior? But i think its something I can revisit later.

ii) True Names - everything has a true name if you know it you can control it. I rejected this because if used on PCs it would be very annoying, and in play I could see it being very similar to Wizards and Alchemists. So I
rejected it.

iii) The Other was Divine magic. So from a meta level (which I kind of lost through the thread ) I want Divine magic to stand out. Now there are a few options.
It could be Big - parting the red sea
It could be Random - roll for % of a wish that is fulfilled
It could only involve a certain type of magic - Divination or Undead or Healing
It could turn the Saint/mystic/priest into a D&D style cleric who buffs the team and himself through blessings and what not.


Sorry big reply

Right so, how about this:

You have four types of prayers or rituals
Minor request:
Start this campfire, find me some food, make an enemy trip up, bless this weapon, roll over a 15 (working off 1-30 for difficulty, adjust as needed).

Call upon the gods:
Exorcise a demon (may be opposed), apply a minor request in a 10m radius, turn undead (may be opposed), heal a friend, sanctify an area, roll over a 20.

Summon divine power:
Summon a higher power, apply a Call upon the Gods in a 10m radius, make a prophecy, create a ward against evil, roll over a 30. This would be the highest normal roll that could be made, typically.

Act of purest faith:
Part an ocean, earthqake, fire and brimstone on a city, wrath of god, roll over a 40. This should not be attempted except by the purest and highest of priests and may need lots of support to build up points.

If a priest succeeds in their prayer, they suffer a cumulative -2, -4, -8 or -12 respectively on all further prayers until they rest and meditate and pray generally, since the gods aren't a plug socket. If they fail, penalties are doubled as their faith is shaken badly. This should mean a decent priest could use 5 or 6 minor requests or 2 to 3 calls upon the gods daily, or one summon higher power if they're feeling lucky. Other penalties might apply like curses if the roll fails by 10 or more (unworthy), adjust all to taste obviously.

It's still terrible, being mostly the GM's call, and priests are 'any effect' machines, but at least the guidelines are a little clearer than guesswork. You could have a list of one-sentence effects for each level and type of priest, without ranges or details, it 'just happens'.

Unfortunately its in the nature of a freeform system is that the caster can do anything. The other problems that may need to be considered overall is that if magic is called on too much it loses any miraculousness. On the other hand if magic is less often used thats OK if the priests have other advantages as well (e.g. better combat skills as compared to wizards)

Usual disclaimer that I'm not sure if this helps or not (OK, I'm lying: I'm sure this isn't helping), is that if there's a relatively limited list of effects like in the Traveller's list above they could perhaps be described almost as 'class features' rather than spells.

Just for interest's sake, here's a Priest class I built about 15 years ago ago for my Tunnels and Trolls/Skills & Powers hybrid game back then. Its basically non-spellcasting since there was no core magic system in T&T; sorcerer-priests can learn and use basic wizard spellcasting to gull the peasants, with other miracles being chosen as class features. Probably the class features selected should reflect the gods' portfolio. Characters got 50 character points to blow on class features initially, divided between their classes if they were multi-classed, plus 5 more each level advanced.

AT&T Priest
Priests are the servants of the gods, sworn to the service of some religion.  Note that a religion must be a true religion to get the Lk points bonus or Miracles ability.  priests have high social status unless their God is abhorred, and often perform a scholarly function.  It is difficult to give role-playing hints for priests, as they vary greatly based on their religion.
Attribute modifiers: divine favour-+3 Lk.  Gets +2 cha (public speaking, social respect, aura of serenity etc.)
Bonus General Skills- read/write, own religious doctrines, Theology
Class Features
Perform miracles (10)- can beg to the GM once per game session.  The gods might then grant him his miserable life (or whatever).
Blessing.(5)- adds +5 to a saving roll or skill check.  This power costs 3 MP to use (3 ST for non magic using character).  The blessing only lasts for 2 turns.(20 minutes).  The character can choose when he uses it and for what attribute- he can decide after dice are rolled.
Identify undead (5)- can immediately spot one of the foul creatures for what it is.  Particularly useful against vampires or illusion-casting undead.
Make Holy Water (5)-requires a ritual.  Dwarven priests may use dwarf spirits instead of water.
Really Nice Afterlife (5) upon death, goes to a heaven with lots of sherbet and houris.
Divination (5)-various methods used, requires a ritual to perform.  The character may gain some idea of possible futures from this.
Dear God (10)- can call on invisible servant spirits of his god to give brief answers to questions.  can ask 3 yes/no questions to Game Master (which must be answered truthfully).
Holy Power (10)-good religions only.  Power over the Undead.Can possibly harm, exorcise, or hold them at bay.
Unbeliever (10)-gods do seem to draw some strength from mortal's belief in them.  A character with this follows a god who proclaims himself the One True God.  For the priest, other gods, their holy objects, afterlives, and miracles are not believed in and so just don't exist- if the priest met a  god from another pantheon he could not even see them (see Eric the Viking for details)
Inquisitor (5)- Knows how to hunt Witches.
Scholar abilities (10)-sage abilities as scholar.
Sorcerer-Priest (15)- Temples often find magically talented individuals, and if so will take them in as initiates, and teach them as best they can.  A priest with this ability casts spells from his own power as a rogue- it is not granted by the gods and cannot easily be taken away by the gods.  Gets all 1st level spells to start with.
First Aid (5)-if a character with this gets to a wounded character less than a minute after it was inflicted they can restore 1-6 hit points.  Wounds the character tends will almost never fester or turn gangrenous.
Divine Wrath (50)- (also called "Smiting")can call down the power of the gods once per adventure on a victim.  This might not actually kill a character but will definetely make them wish they were dead.
Characters may be attacked by angels (or demons, depending on religion), eternally damned, hit by lightning out of a clear sky, Cursed, etc. etc.

Well I don't think Priests should be any better at fighting that wizards. It's like comparing a Vicar to a College lecturer.

However, there is with the system the chance to build a warrior with access to spells or a magi with better combat. It would be possible to make the divine spell casting cheaper to master to allow the magi to spend less as they advance improving it so they could improve other stuff.

Basically as you advance in level you get a handful of benefits dependent on class and archetype. Then you can buy a few more from a short list.
So a Warrior with the gladiator archetype gets +1HP, +1 Attack and +1 Defence as they level and has 10 points to spend on Skills (3 points each), combat syles (1 point each), magic (20 points to learn a magic) extra mana, spells etc etc . The archetypes are defined from a simple list of a dozen things which is common to each of the three classes. So Archetypes determine what you can buy but they in turn are constructed by the GM to fit their particular setting. An archetype is very quick to set up (takes 5 mins to do one), are owned by the GM only, are supposed to be setting specific.

So in the Magus Class where all caster archetypes sit, priests, mystics, shamen, Tricksters, magicians, scholars etc etc ... you could create a battlemage or a Templar. The system would deliberately make this quite hard because it is geared to a class based model with a degree of niche protection.
However, as a magus levels most magic types require you spend points learning new spells, or effects, mastering the names of demons or the properties of certain materials. Now if the Divine magi didn't need to do that they could use that part of their character development to build other skills. This kind of makes sense as the divine magic is more of a gift.

Seems like a workable solution. I guess priests might also save at the attribute point stage if there's no controlling attribute that needs to be bought up to represent someone having 'the gift', if its just based on piety.

I think making the cost lower would be reasonable if divine magic is weaker than 'arcane' magic, which seemed to be what was suggested, so that people don't just entirely give up on priests...so maybe not more combat skills but medieval-type monks could just have more knowledge based skills. As well as skills priests could also get social rank/prestige, followers or church support as options, maybe.

Also, backtracking a couple of posts up to what the role of divine magic is, in D&D clerics get stuck with 'healbot' since someone has to do it, but if its necessary from a game POV may depend on the rest of your system too. So divination could be another option as you say maybe, rather than very overt miracles.

So, I just registered after having found the forum yesterday.

I've been through this same process indicated on this thread myself. I dunno if the solution I've came up with is one which can work for your system or not but maybe it can help somehow.

What I do is the following: I have wizards similar to your own, with a great ability to define how the spell works, with multiple variables they can change and define and control and so on. I wanted to differentiate divine magic in a meaningful, fundamental way. But I also had a common base for all things magic. My thought process was that a priest shouldn't have so much control about what he achives because everything he does is petitioning/praying to a god or something like that. So the god would control the final effect. That is similar to the power that the wizard have over his spells. That power would be left on the hands of the god, not the priest.

So, how to take that power away from the player of the priest, and into the gm, without making it a free form, gm handwaving thing? I got to the understanding that, no matter the effect of the spell, when a player wants to have his character perform a spell there is always a goal for that. That was the key, priests determine the goal of the spell, the god decides how to best achieve that goal based on the personality, power level, spheres of influence, mood, how much they like the priest, etc.

So I ended up with a system where:
Wizards define how their magic works but not the ultimate result. If they create fire to harm an opponent, if the opponent calls down rain the fire can go out and they remain unarmed. Their magic creates the effect (shooting fire) which can achieve the desired goal or not depending on the circumstances. The player can't just say: "I cast a spell to deal damage". He is limited in defining how the spell will work and if that would have an in game effect of causing damage the goal is achieved, otherwise, the effect can be anything different than the desired goal, that makes sense in the setting.

Priests define the goal of their magic and the god determines the effect to achieve it. If the goal is to harm someone a firegod will make fire rain down or cause a burst of fire from a lit torch, make the target spontaneously combust or something like that but if the target is imune or protected from fire a fire god will use something else or use fire indirectly like burning a rope holding a rock which will fall on the target or something like that. A god of another thing will do it in any other way. It can be anything from inflicting a curse on the target, granting a to-hit or damage bonus to the priest or his allies, calling an angel to attack the target, making an allie of the target turn on him, causing a rock to fall on him or even direct smite without any observable effect. What will not happen is something which has no effect due to the target being imune to it. The god would know that and avoid it. Divine magic always achieves its goal in some way, contrary to wizard magic which always produces the effect as defined but can end up not achieving the desired goal.

The gm should be free to use any secret information ("gods work in misterious ways" as well as "gods know best") and achieve the stated goal of the spell in as mysterious a way as adequate to the god and situation in question, even to the point of leaving the player wandering what the effect of the spell was if that behaviour is adequate to the social contract and play style of the group.

The effect can be as indirect as needed/adequate and can have side effects, including bad side effects. The effect can also only help or allow the character to achieve the desired goal while requiring the character to perform some task to actually achieve it. The effect could also only happen after some time, happen in a place different from where the character currently is, etc. These things could be determined by the result of the casting roll. The higher the value the more direct the goal would be achieved, the faster it would be achieved, the lesser side effects it would have, the less help it would require from the character, etc. It should be possible to quantify these on a table based on your system, allowing the gm some freedom but defining guidelines on how that freedom can be used.
The side effects or requirements to achieve the goal shouldn't just be a free reign for the gm to create the worst possible interpretation of the goal as stated by the player. Instead it should be interpreted by the phylosophy of the character's patron god. A god dedicated to personal growth would grant the goal with an obstacle that would force the character to surpass himself in some way before achieving it for example.

Priest: Help us getting out of this dungeon.
Possible effects:
Kaboom, rockfall opens a passageway to the outside.
Players fall in a pit which contains a secret passage out (falling can cause damage and secret passage might need to be found)
Players get attacked by a bandit which holds a key to unlock an exit (if they kill/defeat it and search the corpse they can find the key and if they try it on that door...)
Players are found by someone who helps them.
Players find a map
Priest character just gets a mental map of the place out of nowhere
Another character, not the priest, remembers a tale about the place with an indication on how to exit it

Priest: heal this friend of mine
-Direct divine healing
-Gain the knowledge of how to act to treat the wound (get a bonus to a healing check)
-Gain the knowledge of where to find the ingredients to brew an antidote
-Find a mushroom with healing properties
-The character's wine get blessed with healing properties that last only some time (the players can be told of this or not, being left in the dark until they discover it, if they do)



Hope this is comprehensible to some extent as my head is spinning for some reason right now.
Also, dunno if it helps you in any way, if it can be done with your system. It works fine with mine because in it, a point is a point is a point damage and attack and speed and a skill value and whatever are all mechanical equivalents and I can define a result of x and apply that x to anything in the system. That allows me to have an action with a numeric result without having to previously define what thar result will apply to.
If you don't see a way for it to work with your system hope it at least helps in giving some ideas or thinking a little more.

Cheers

Quote from: B0rg;640648So, I just registered after having found the forum yesterday.

I've been through this same process indicated on this thread myself. I dunno if the solution I've came up with is one which can work for your system or not but maybe it can help somehow.

What I do is the following: I have wizards similar to your own, with a great ability to define how the spell works, with multiple variables they can change and define and control and so on. I wanted to differentiate divine magic in a meaningful, fundamental way. But I also had a common base for all things magic. My thought process was that a priest shouldn't have so much control about what he achives because everything he does is petitioning/praying to a god or something like that. So the god would control the final effect. That is similar to the power that the wizard have over his spells. That power would be left on the hands of the god, not the priest.

So, how to take that power away from the player of the priest, and into the gm, without making it a free form, gm handwaving thing? I got to the understanding that, no matter the effect of the spell, when a player wants to have his character perform a spell there is always a goal for that. That was the key, priests determine the goal of the spell, the god decides how to best achieve that goal based on the personality, power level, spheres of influence, mood, how much they like the priest, etc.

So I ended up with a system where:
Wizards define how their magic works but not the ultimate result. If they create fire to harm an opponent, if the opponent calls down rain the fire can go out and they remain unarmed. Their magic creates the effect (shooting fire) which can achieve the desired goal or not depending on the circumstances. The player can't just say: "I cast a spell to deal damage". He is limited in defining how the spell will work and if that would have an in game effect of causing damage the goal is achieved, otherwise, the effect can be anything different than the desired goal, that makes sense in the setting.

Priests define the goal of their magic and the god determines the effect to achieve it. If the goal is to harm someone a firegod will make fire rain down or cause a burst of fire from a lit torch or something like that but if that someone is imune or protected from fire a fire god will use something else and a god of another thing will do it in any other way. It can be anything from inflicting a curse on the target, granting a to-hit or damage bonus to the priest or his allies, calling an angel to attack the target, making an allie of the target turn on him, causing a rock to fall on him or even direct smittin without any observable effect.

The gm should be free to use any secret information (gods work in misterious ways as well and they do know best) and achieve the stated goal of the spell in as mysterious a way as adequate to the god and situation in question, even to the point of leaving the player wandering what the effect of the spell was if that behaviour is adequate to the social contract and play style of the group.

The effect can be as indirect as needed/adequate and can have side effects, including bad side effects. The effect can also only help or allow the character to achieve the desired goal while requiring the character to perform some task to actually achieve it. These things could be determined by the result of the casting roll. The higher the value the more direct the goal would be achieved, the faster it would be achieved, the lesser side effects it would have, the less help it would require from the character, etc. It should be possible to quantify these on a table based on your system, allowing the gm some freedom but defining guidelines on how that freedom can be used.

Priest: Help us getting out of this dungeon.
Possible effects:
Kaboom, rockfall opens a passageway to the outside.
Players fall in a pit which contains a secret passage out (falling can cause damage)
Players get attacked by a bandit which holds a key to unlock an exist (if they kill/defeat it and search the corpse they can find the key and if they try it on that door...)
Players are found by someone who helps them.
Players find a map
Priest character just gets a mental map of the place out of nowhere
Another character, not the priest, remembers a tale about the place with an indication on how to exit it

Priest: heal this friend of mine
-Direct divine healing
-Gain the knowledge of how to act to treat the wound (get a bonus to a healing check)
-Gain the knowledge of where to find the ingredients to brew an antidote
-Find a mushroom with healing properties
-The character's wine get blessed with healing properties that last only some time (the players can be told of this or not, being left in the dark until they discover it, if they do)

Thanks for the ideas B0rg when I get a workin system i will post it here with the full magic rules.

welcome

Ey, np. I've made a few edits to it though. Some awful spelling that caught my eye and added some examples and clarifications but I really shouldn't be writting stuff right now. I just seem to be suffering from some sort of magic systems addiction right now!