Shatter a weapon during a fight

Benoist · July 04, 2010, 08:39:04 PM

When you are actively trying to break a weapon with your own during a fight, how often do you think the attempt will be successful? I.e. is it easy to shatter a weapon during a fight, in your opinion?

Silverlion · July 04, 2010, 09:09:58 PM

A wooden haft? Somewhat possible, and common. A steel weapon, possible but more difficult.

A lot of it depends on the era and use of the weapon. Few people would try and cut a (heavy) axe haft, that meant you had to be pretty much in way of the weapon to get a good shot. A Spear less challenging--and pole arms which are used in formation along that lines--but then you want your own reach for it.

In general there are a lot of factors that matter. Such as weapon used vs weapon attacked.

The big thing I'd use "is it fun, and does it make sense?", myself though.

The Worid · July 04, 2010, 09:22:43 PM

My issue with "sunder" mechanics is that I'm sometimes uncertain what an attempt to break a weapon actually is. For example, I could see someone sundering an enemy's rifle with his hammer, because rifles aren't made to be hit; however, how does one purposefully destroy a blade with his own blade? Aren't the blades already understood to be contacting one another through the process of parrying? What are you doing differently?

That said, it seems highly variable based on the materials the weapons are made of. I don't think I'm particularly qualified to answer the question.

Benoist · July 04, 2010, 09:23:20 PM

Quote from: Silverlion;391810A wooden haft? Somewhat possible, and common. A steel weapon, possible but more difficult.

A lot of it depends on the era and use of the weapon. Few people would try and cut a (heavy) axe haft, that meant you had to be pretty much in way of the weapon to get a good shot. A Spear less challenging--and pole arms which are used in formation along that lines--but then you want your own reach for it.

In general there are a lot of factors that matter. Such as weapon used vs weapon attacked.

Well my system of maneuvers is abstract. What I'm trying to figure out is what a basic hardness rating for a weapon would look like. If someone with an average strength could break a weapon half the time (50% chance to break), it would mean the hardness rating is 10. 75% of the time would mean a hardness of 5 for the same average joe. 25% chance would mean a hardness of 15.

So I'm trying to figure out what would be the hardness of say... a longsword, or a halberd's shaft. Etc.

Quote from: Silverlion;391810The big thing I'd use "is it fun, and does it make sense?", myself though.

I agree. What I'm trying to figure out is what would roughly make sense, and then, I would fine tune/play with the system's abstraction to make it lean as close towards the entertaining side of the equation as possible.

Benoist · July 04, 2010, 09:28:07 PM

Quote from: The Worid;391812however, how does one purposefully destroy a blade with his own blade? Aren't the blades already understood to be contacting one another through the process of parrying? What are you doing differently?

The angle of attack can be different. If you hit a blade with all your strength with its edge against the flat side of the opponent's sword, you can shatter it. Especially close to the hilt. It's a function of precision in the hit, luck, and positioning of your strike (i.e. you force your opponent into exposing his blade to you).

The Worid · July 05, 2010, 01:08:25 AM

Quote from: Benoist;391814The angle of attack can be different. If you hit a blade with all your strength with its edge against the flat side of the opponent's sword, you can shatter it. Especially close to the hilt. It's a function of precision in the hit, luck, and positioning of your strike (i.e. you force your opponent into exposing his blade to you).

I see. That makes sense.

Anyways, there is a system of object hardness and weapon breaking in D&D3; why not use a version of that?

Benoist · July 05, 2010, 01:15:22 AM

Quote from: The Worid;391848I see. That makes sense.

Anyways, there is a system of object hardness and weapon breaking in D&D3; why not use a version of that?

*nod* I can always fall back on something like this, yes.

Lawbag · July 05, 2010, 05:17:39 AM

Didn't the TV programme Mythbusters do something like this where dispelled the myth of cutting a sword in two?

As long as its metal, the chance of it breaking (unless it was inferior metal) was nil.

Obviously if the weapon has a wooden component (i.e. a hand axe), then that should be easier.

jibbajibba · July 05, 2010, 06:54:58 AM

Quote from: Lawbag;391862Didn't the TV programme Mythbusters do something like this where dispelled the myth of cutting a sword in two?

As long as its metal, the chance of it breaking (unless it was inferior metal) was nil.

Obviously if the weapon has a wooden component (i.e. a hand axe), then that should be easier.

I can totally agree with this except.... you can break your own weapons. I have snapped 2 or 3 fencing blades through my own action. I do think that that in a genuine combat the changes of a weapon gettign cut in two or shattered as so small as to be impossible to produce in a game. However, this does occur in the source material (books and movies) so its about realism versus cinematic again.

Nicephorus · July 05, 2010, 07:34:37 AM

On the whole, metal was probably a lot less pure than it is today so mythbusters' results may not apply. I also can't remember if they were hitting on the edge or the flat. I do recall that they snapped a couple even though they didn't cut through it, which is functionally the same in that there is still a guy without a weapon.

One of the purposes of large swords was to cut off the ends of pikes and break up pike formations, so cutting/breaking/shattering the hafts seems reasonable.

Back to the metal quality, back when wood was used to heat the ore, impurities got in the metal. Bronze and copper also seemed a bit crappy as classical sources often mention weapons breaking.

Silverlion · July 05, 2010, 08:01:19 AM

Quote from: Nicephorus;391870On the whole, metal was probably a lot less pure than it is today so mythbusters' results may not apply.

Depends on the era and origin region of the blade--surprisingly they're was some really good metal in some regions in the past. Swords were often passed down through families, some were repaired from damage though when they did grow too thin or took damage.

Possible, and easy solution: On a critical failure of a parry (or attack.) Make a save with a bonus for quality and age as well as magical bonuses. Though I think this save ought to be pretty good unless the sword has seen a lot of use or is very ancient. If it fails it breaks in some manner.

Lawbag · July 05, 2010, 10:43:15 AM

In the Mythbusters examples they blades either bent and snapped back into place (samurai swords) or became nicked (Scottish claymore).

The notion of a blade snapping is more cinematic, as the energy and force required to even nick or bend a blade is beyond normal human strength.

Benoist · July 05, 2010, 12:23:08 PM

Yeah. I'm not a big fan of the Mythbusters' modus operandi. I like the show, but most of their simulations and approximations of the myths to prove or dispell have holes the size of freaking 747s into them.

LordVreeg · July 06, 2010, 09:46:15 PM

Quote from: Benoist;391805When you are actively trying to break a weapon with your own during a fight, how often do you think the attempt will be successful? I.e. is it easy to shatter a weapon during a fight, in your opinion?

SO many factors involved.
I have swordbreakers, etc in my system that can shatter a sword or a haft of a weapon if the user hits bt 25% over what they need to and can choose then to attack the weapon itself.
But the attacker must roll very well, and the defender must fail a reflex check badly to make it happen.