Quote from: James J SkachStuart - I'm calling you on bad analogy (let's have a Bad Analogy Day so we can get them all out of our systems at once! Me included!).

Go back and think of movies pre 1950's - and tell me again why they were bad?  I mean, just from a few of my favorites - The Big Sleep, Casablanca, The Thin Man, And Then There Were None, Maltese Falcon, etc.

You seem to be asserting the opinion that games pre 2000 weren't of as good a quality as those done post 2000 because the designer wasn't seen as important (like director's, you seem to imply, weren't pre 1950). It's just not gonna fly...

It's not an analogy.  That's literally what the term means.  It's also not a value statement on films pre 1950's.  Auteur films are not inherently better than studio system films.  Casablanca was a great film.  House of the Dead was not.

Quote from: TonyLBSo ... are you saying that nobody would ever choose to play indie games unless they are one of those wierdos who likes indie games?

I guess I can't argue with that logic.

I'm saying the primary customer of indie gaming is most likely already an inhabitant of the forgie wind-tunnel. Either it's a guy who is already a designer, or a guy who desperately wants to hang around with that crowd.

This is fairly obvious whenever you guys do those once-quarterly "What Game Do You Wish You Were Playing Right Now" discussions and then you all hilariously namecheck each other with incestuous fervor.

Quote from: BalbinusYeah, I'm struggling with this whole thing too, it's artificial to take the decision to buy and play the indie game out of the equation.

So, if I decided to buy one of these games, and then presumably having read it decide to play it, I don't see why it's a problem that it's applications are fairly narrow.  Presumably I want those applications or I wouldn't be playing it.

Fine, let's drop the power angle. What I'm arguing is that the game-designer-as-auteur attitude which certain parts of the Forge tend to take is going to naturally give rise to narrow games, not because of Forge theory but simply because it assumes that game designers are going to be making a lot of the decisions about a game.

I can't find the exact quote right now, but Warthur is just repeating a statement made many times on the Forge: It was something like...

"We don't want games that allow you to 'do anything'. We want games that tell you precisely how to play."

This ties in naturally to the forgie dogma that all "creative agendas" are either narrowly defined (it's either G.. or N.. or S!) or "incoherent", with "incoherence" being connotated as a bad thing.

The nice way of saying it is what Stuart said; "Theyre more like boardgames".

I'm not sure anyone is actually arguing that this isn't so, except TonyLB who is doing so from a place of dishonesty and public relations, as usual. So I dunno...

Further to my previous reply...

Basically, if you know the name of the person who directed the film, or designed the game -- it's an auteur film / game.  Again, this isn't a value judgement -- it's just what the term means.

So auteur directors would include:  DeMille,Hughes, Von Stroheim, Welles, Spielberg, Cronenberg, Lucas, Ford Coppola, Burton, Kaufman and even Boll.  The director of your favourite episodes of Everybody Loves Raymond, Law & Order, or Sex in the City -- not auteurs.  They need to follow a style set for them so that other directors can produce similar work.

Game designer auteurs would include Teuber, Knizia, Gygax, Cook, Nixon, Edwards and so on.  Games designed by large teams, or that are produced by a company with little prominence given to identifying the game designer -- not auteurs.  Heroscape, and possibly some d20 games would fall into this category.  I'm not sure about D&D.  Probably.

Quote from: StuartGame designer auteurs would include Teuber, Knizia, Gygax, Cook, Nixon, Edwards and so on.  Games designed by large teams, or that are produced by a company with little prominence given to identifying the game designer -- not auteurs.  Heroscape, and possibly some d20 games would fall into this category.  I'm not sure about D&D.  Probably.

Well, Tweet, Cook, and Williams. Later expanded by everyone who ever worked in R&D at Wizards.

Yeah, I guess this is why Auteur doesn't really fit. Some designers design with flexibility in mind, so the terms can't be synonymous.

Quote from: Abyssal MawI'm not sure anyone is actually arguing that this isn't so, except TonyLB who is doing so from a place of dishonesty and public relations, as usual. So I dunno...

Actually, Tony isn't arguing against it. He's arguing that it isn't a power thing, which has been conceded.

-clash

Quote from: Abyssal MawI'm saying the primary customer of indie gaming is most likely already an inhabitant of the forgie wind-tunnel. Either it's a guy who is already a designer, or a guy who desperately wants to hang around with that crowd.

I don't know about all this primary stuff. I do know a few folks (not many) who play forge games and don't have anything to do with the forge. They just like playing different games. They (we) play all sorts of games.

I've never visited the site...well, I have seen some threads, stuff which folks post on sites like tBP and here. I've never visited the forge, although I once visited a place called the Forge or something like that.

I think it was a S&M site. My Life With Master took on a whole different meaning. But it wasn't so bad because I said I was a Game Master and deprotaganization was the goal of their games....

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Stuart....would include Teuber, Knizia, Gygax, Cook, Nixon, Edwards and so on.  Games designed by large teams, or that are produced by a company with little prominence given to identifying the game designer -- not auteurs.  Heroscape, and possibly some d20 games would fall into this category.  I'm not sure about D&D.  Probably.

I'd add Tweet, Mearls, Laws, Borgstrom to name a few...

Regards,
David R

Quote from: StuartFurther to my previous reply...

Basically, if you know the name of the person who directed the film, or designed the game -- it's an auteur film / game.  Again, this isn't a value judgement -- it's just what the term means.

So auteur directors would include:  DeMille,Hughes, Von Stroheim, Welles, Spielberg, Cronenberg, Lucas, Ford Coppola, Burton, Kaufman and even Boll.  The director of your favourite episodes of Everybody Loves Raymond, Law & Order, or Sex in the City -- not auteurs.  They need to follow a style set for them so that other directors can produce similar work.

Don't you think a definition of auteur that has room for both James Cameron and Francois Truffaut in film, Edwards and Gygax in RPGs, is so broad as to be useless?

As useless, in fact, as basing the definition of "indie" on a distribution model, joining up as that does the auteur of HYBRID with the auteur of Sorcerer?

What is it with you indie guys and your lack of rigor when it comes to cultural analysis?

Quote from: David RI'd add Tweet, Mearls, Laws, Borgstrom to name a few...

Yes, absolutely.  If you can easily identify that the game was designed by Person X -- that's an auteur game.  So any of the people posting here who have created their own games, including Kyle/JimBobOz -- are auteurs.

So auteur doesn't mean a particular style, quality, or experience as a designer.  It's

Quote from: Pierce InverarityDon't you think a definition of auteur that has room for both James Cameron and Francois Truffaut in film, Edwards and Gygax in RPGs, is so broad as to be useless?

As useless, in fact, as basing the definition of "indie" on a distribution model, joining up as that does the auteur of HYBRID with the auteur of Sorcerer?

What is it with you indie guys and your lack of rigor when it comes to cultural analysis?

I didn't invent the term.  I'm just explaining it.  It's about the role the designer has in the overall project / finished product -- did they have creative control, or were they a smaller part of a broader creative team.

Edit: I'm not that familiar with it, but I don't think Hybrid is an auteur game.

Quote from: StuartEdit: I'm not that familiar with it, but I don't think Hybrid is an auteur game.

Welcome to the world of pain...

http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=4345

OK Stuart, I believe we have miscommunication (most likley on my part).

When you wrote this:

Quote from: StuartIt might help if you consider the other way that films were made up to the point that French term was coined.  The Hollywood studio system (pre 1950s) in which films were put together in an assembly line type fashion.  They just cranked 'em out, and the Director really had very little input on how things were put together.  So an "Auteur" was a director who actually had some control over the overall film.  So unless d4-d4 was something you did at a "working for the weekend" job, you too are an auteur.

it appeared to me as if you were implying (perhaps it was simply me inferring) that films were just "cranked out" before Auteur's came along in the 50's - and that this was not necessarily a good thing.

I guess I'm countering with Howard Hawks as an example - Bringing Up Baby (38), His Girl Friday (40), Seargent York (41), The Big Sleep (46). Was he "Auteur"?  If so, then it's useless to put a time frame on it (as you did with the 1950's) as "auteurs" obviously existed before that. If not, then why not?

However, if that's not what you were trying to say, I guess I'm at a loss...

Did EGG have less influence over D&D design than, say, Baker did over DitV? I doubt it. So if EGG and Baker are auteur, what does it tell us? Not a damn thing, I say. And that's not on you.

I think the term is simply being misused in an otherwise intersting hypothesis.  This isn't about whether the designer is Auteur...it's about whether or not narrowing the focus of a game provides for the designers ideas to become more influential in actual play.

I think....

Quote from: Pierce InverarityWelcome to the world of pain...

http://index.rpg.net/display-entry.phtml?mainid=4345

Oh, THAT hybrid.

I'd say it's an auteur parody-RPG. It sort of reminds me of Owlbears which they erroneously credit to me, when all I did was upload Sammy Clemens work...