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Author Topic: Forge Theory  (Read 20919 times)

bobmangm

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Forge Theory
« on: January 14, 2007, 10:29:10 PM »
I'm not pro or con on any theory of gaming, but I am interested in understanding where people are coming from.  Having said that, I'm confused on Forge Theory and OGL.  Can somebody point me to a site, post or even give me a breakdown so that I have a basic understanding?

I will say it all seems like crap.  If you like it, that is great and that is all that should matter.  But, in I want to put in the effort because you never know everything.  Thanks.

If I'm being stupid, just don't answer the post.  Nothing I hate more than people who are not only unhelpful, but assholes about it.  And dog will fight, but would much rather game.  :D

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TonyLB

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Forge Theory
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2007, 10:41:43 PM »
Well, Bob, there's yer two basic ways of thinking of Forge Theory:
  • All theory that people thought up in association with the Forge:  This is a big spaghetti tangle of discourse back and forth, and no one person believes all of it (indeed, since people have proposed mutually incompatible theories on the Forge, it would be illogical for a single person to believe all of it).  There is a general foundation of stuff about system influencing behavior, and some attention to reward systems, but seriously ... that may just be me.  I can tell you my personal take on the "important" bits of Forge theory, but ask another person and you'll get a different laundry list.
  • Only the specific theory that Ron Edwards proferred in a series of articles, and which many people spent a lot of time talking about:  This includes such popular terms as GNS and the Big Model.  I can't tell you very much about it, because it simply doesn't make my laundry list of important things that I've taken away from the Forge into my own theory.  No doubt someone else can pick up my slack.
If ya want to hear my laundry list of Forgey-think stuff, I'll tell you.  But if you want the Ron Edwards stuff then I won't bore you with mine.

Sound good?
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bobmangm

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Forge Theory
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2007, 10:56:05 PM »
Would it be accurate to say Ron Edwards started the movement and it is from his original ideas the rest of the 'Forge' has grown?  I've already seen a post that questions his credentials.  But, that doesn't mean his ideas are crap, but less academically based.

I assume from your post that their isn't a true 'Forge Theory' but a loose group of ideas and camps (even if it is only one person shouting in a field).  But they have a web site or a preferred posting site?

What is GNS?  I think I also so a OGL?

:confused:
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bobmangm

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Forge Theory
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2007, 11:00:15 PM »
Would Capes be a 'Forge Type' game?  No GM.  Narrative in nature.
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Kyle Aaron

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Forge Theory
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2007, 11:03:11 PM »
Quote from: bobmangm
I'm confused on Forge Theory and OGL.  Can somebody point me to a site, post or even give me a breakdown so that I have a basic understanding?

You could always try the site itself, their articles are here.

Most significant in terms of "Forge theory" are The Provisional Glossary, and to know the basis of it, GNS and Other Matters of Role-playing Theory.

If those make no sense to you, don't feel bad, it's just because they're badly-written nonsense. But by all means, read all of them just to make sure. :D
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Kyle Aaron

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« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2007, 11:05:49 PM »
Quote from: bobmangm
Would it be accurate to say Ron Edwards started the movement and it is from his original ideas the rest of the 'Forge' has grown?

Yes.

And to judge the worth of his ideas, you should read them. I did, and so I'm fully-qualified to dismiss them all as utter nonsense.
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Levi Kornelsen

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Forge Theory
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2007, 11:13:39 PM »
Quote from: bobmangm
What is GNS?  I think I also so a OGL?


GNS is short for Gamist-Narrativist-Simulationist, which are intended as three different ways of looking at gaming that groups might have - game as game, game as shared story, game as simulation.  It goes on from there.  Personally, I don't think that it's valid - it's close to a valid concept, but carries along a lot of really unfortunate baggage.  That's my own opinion, and as JimBob says, forming your own opinion is good.

OGL usually means Open Game License, which is connected to d20 and D&D and not at all to Forge theory.

Consonant Dude

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Forge Theory
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2007, 11:20:26 PM »
Quote from: bobmangm
If I'm being stupid, just don't answer the post.


It's not that you are stupid. It's just that you are being lazy. The theory is over there, at the Forge, for all to see. It has also been debated extensively on multiple websites such as the Forge itself and RPG.net, again for all to see.

I suggest you follow JimBob's advice and go read it for yourself.

Then if you have specific questions or things you want to debate, maybe that could be more productive.

-E.

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Forge Theory
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2007, 11:29:33 PM »
Quote from: bobmangm
I'm not pro or con on any theory of gaming, but I am interested in understanding where people are coming from.  Having said that, I'm confused on Forge Theory and OGL.  Can somebody point me to a site, post or even give me a breakdown so that I have a basic understanding?

I will say it all seems like crap.  If you like it, that is great and that is all that should matter.  But, in I want to put in the effort because you never know everything.  Thanks.

If I'm being stupid, just don't answer the post.  Nothing I hate more than people who are not only unhelpful, but assholes about it.  And dog will fight, but would much rather game.  :D

BobManGM


Here's a very quick breakdown:

1) Back before there was a Forge, there was Usenet. It was a wild place. Many of the folks here, at RPG.net, and at The Forge participated in a news group calle rec.games.fantasy.advocacy (or something) -- r.g.f.a., for short.

2) R.g.f.a came up with some basic concepts that underpin a lot of RPG theory including "forge theory"

A sample would be the concept of "stances" and the idea of a "social contract" defining what's acceptabled / expected in a game, and so-on.

r.g.f.a also came up with the idea that "different people like different things" in gaming and even defined a taxonomy of how different GM's might make decisions based on their priorities.

Ultimately, as the web evolved, discussion moved from Usenet to forums like this one and The Forge.

NOTE: Almost *all* the good ideas in RPG Theory came from r.g.f.a. If you're talking to a theorist and he's making sense, it's a good bet he's leveraging r.g.f.a. ideas.

I didn't realize this when I started getting familiar with the theory. It was an eye-opener.

3) Ron Edwards created The Forge to develop & advance his own ideas -- he was one of several voices in r.g.f.a -- at The Forge, thanks to his moderation style, he was / is the only one that matters.

He created GNS, now called The Big Model, to explain what people like about gaming and how game systems deliver "fun."

Very simply, GNS/TBM posits that there are 3 agendas that a person might have in a game:

1) Gamist -- the person wants to impress his friends with his skill at the game. Usually Gamists, "play to win"
2) Narrativist -- the person wants to address some human-interest issue in the game and dislikes being railroaded
3) Simulationist -- used to mean the person was into exploring the world. Now, Forge Theory is kinda broken, and Simulationism is NOT DEFINED... which is a pretty big problem for the theory since the other agendas are often defined in terms of Simulationism.

According to GNS, everyone prioritizes one of these. Game systems (meaning the mechanics, the non-mechanical rules, the flavor text in the book, the setting, etc.) can facilitate these agendas in a way that is not and has never been well defined...

This leaves theorists with a bit of a ... hole in the theory: according to TBM, a game could be designed to facilitate, say, Gamist play... which seems to make sense at a high level (it would be more like a tactical war game, maybe, than like a story-telling game).

Thing is, the theory doesn't give any guidance or framework to help a gamer (or a designer, or anyone trying to actually use the theory) figure out exactly what, about a game, might make it gamist-facilitating.

Same absence of framework exists for the other agendas.

In practice, theorists who like a game and think it's "deep" call it Narrativist. Some of them will even make idiosyncratic arguments to explain why they believe that...

GNS/TBM has some other key and amusing bits:

1) Games that don't facilitate a single agenda are "incoherent" -- incoherent games will, most-likely end in on-going power struggle between the players and the GM
2) Narrativist players who play incoherent games will get BRAIN DAMAGE!!! That's right! Brain Damage! It's not a "metaphor" it's not a "figure of speech" -- the theory posits real, identifyable BRAIN DAMAGE!

Some people find the theory insulting because of this -- if you say BRAIN DAMAGE in ALL CAPS, though, it can actually be more amusing than insulting. I recommend you read the posts on The Forge describing the Brain Damage...

They're... a hoot :)

Anyway...

4) Even before the BRAIN DAMAGE things were falling apart. The theory never made a lot of sense, and The Forge shut down the forums for discussing them.

After the whole damage thing a lot of people who used to follow the theory moved even further away.

Now you get a lot of blogs and far less... ahem... coherent discourse.

There are, periodically, good ideas out there -- but fundamentally the theory (and the spin-off theories) are pretty flawed.

Forge Theory works well as *advocacy* -- if you want to call your game cool, you can say it's "Narrativist." If you're part of the community, you can be part of the "Indie Revolution" (this is like being an indie film maker or musician! Pretty cool, huh? The big-boys have sold out to their corporate overlords!)

Cheers,
-E.
 

bobmangm

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Forge Theory
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2007, 11:29:55 PM »
Breaking Through The Noise...

I was trying to break through the noise here and there.  It is something that is done all the time.  Lazy?  Maybe.  Is it better to not reinvent the wheel when people already have?  Definitely.

And trust me, once the links to the “core” where there, I will read them.  And "At the Forge" means nothing to me, hence the reason I asked for links (or a URL would do too).
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Kyle Aaron

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« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2007, 11:30:28 PM »
Quote from: Levi Kornelsen
OGL usually means Open Game License, which is connected to d20 and D&D and not at all to Forge theory.

Actually, GNS and OGL are connected in some respects, in that rpg theory itself is really a game, and GNS is effectively under an OGL, because whenever someone posts supporting it, they post an interpretation of it which is quite different from what the original text actually says.
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Levi Kornelsen

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« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2007, 11:42:10 PM »
Quote from: JimBobOz
Actually, GNS and OGL are connected in some respects, in that rpg theory itself is really a game, and GNS is effectively under an OGL, because whenever someone posts supporting it, they post an interpretation of it which is quite different from what the original text actually says.


True dat.

TonyLB

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« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2007, 12:34:08 AM »
Quote from: bobmangm
Would Capes be a 'Forge Type' game?  No GM.  Narrative in nature.
Well, see, there's a great example.

Capes was, quite literally, developed on the Forge.  If you go back far enough you can see me working through prototypes by discussing them with people on the boards.  So it's clearly heavily (like, nearly 100%) influenced by my first category:  "Theory that people fiddle with and work at on the Forge."

But I don't even know what you mean when you say "Narrative in nature."  I mean ... yeah, it's an RPG ... there's narration.  But I'd guess that's not what you mean.

I know that Capes doesn't have any particular affiliation to one of the three GNS modes ... enough so that Ron and I have had heated discussions about the game's nature, and we still have unsettled issues.  So I feel pretty confident in saying that it doesn't owe much (if anything) to GNS or the Big Model.

So is it a "Forge Type" game?  :shrug:
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Consonant Dude

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« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2007, 02:34:14 AM »
Quote from: TonyLB
I know that Capes doesn't have any particular affiliation to one of the three GNS modes ... enough so that Ron and I have had heated discussions about the game's nature, and we still have unsettled issues.  So I feel pretty confident in saying that it doesn't owe much (if anything) to GNS or the Big Model.

So is it a "Forge Type" game?  :shrug:


It doesn't really matter whether it is or not. "Forge games" range from shitty to excellent, like every other games. Although I must say I'm starting to see more and more redundancy from Forgites.  

But from everything I know about Capes, I tend to associate your game as a "Forge type" game. (Again, keeping in mind that this isn't necessarly good or bad).

I wonder how different your game would have turned out if you hadn't sought extensive feedback over there.

arminius

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Forge Theory
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2007, 05:01:35 AM »
Quote from: -E.
A sample would be the concept of "stances" and the idea of a "social contract"
I think it was more common to talk about a "group contract". In any case, the meaning of rgfa terms was altered considerably when Edwards started using them. However I did find at least one post on rgfa, by Carl Cravens in 1996, where he spoke about a "social contract" in terms very similar to the Forge concept.
Quote
Ron Edwards created The Forge to develop & advance his own ideas -- he was one of several voices in r.g.f.a -- at The Forge, thanks to his moderation style, he was / is the only one that matters.
As far as I know, Edwards never participated on rgfa, although he acknowledged reading it while developing his ideas. I think the first forum where he discussed the stuff that became GNS was The Gaming Outpost. Some other theories by other participants in those discussions, such as "GENder theory", also fed into GNS.