Courtesy of Stuart, who wrote:

QuoteI want to see RPGs that are:

* Little to no prep work
* Can be played quickly, perhaps in as little as 2 hours
* Don't require extensive rulebooks to be memorized
* The goal(s) of the game is clear and understood by all players
* Players can play competitively and not pull their punches
* Players can focus on roleplaying their characters rather than creating the overall game narrative
* The game is more appealing to the "average person"
* The game is not seen as the exclusive domain of introverted and/or socially awkward people (aka Lawncrappers)

There's the goal. What can we do to meet that goal, what are the best ways to make a game like that?

RPGPundit

Initial thoughts:

* Little to no prep work
* The goal(s) of the game is clear and understood by all players
Obvious (or licensed) setting with an obvious starting situation. Think of the 'high concept' pitch of a movie and so on. (Star Wars, Undercover Cop Drama, Band of Brothers). Maybe rules to help the GM create a good starting situation quickly & easily. On-the-fly NPC generation rules.

* Can be played quickly, perhaps in as little as 2 hours
Simple rules. Template-based character creation (maybe "Chinese menu" style; one from column 'A' another from column 'B'?) Again, have a clear and immediate goal for the players. Simple and clear resolution mechanic. Obvious big end point for each session, so any 2hr session feels like "you got something done". The resolution system should always move things forward in some way, regardless of success or failure.

* Don't require extensive rulebooks to be memorized
Put all the major rules on the character sheet, for quick reference. Clear and simple "Universal" resolution mechanic, so no hunting around for special cases.

* Players can play competitively and not pull their punches
Players get "points" and can keep score relative to each other. Rules are clear and unambiguous, and resolve conflicts in a balanced fashion with definate and understood outcomes.

* Players can focus on roleplaying their characters rather than creating the overall game narrative
The "overall game narrative" is something which comes 'naturally' out of the players roleplaying their characters (i.e the characters are interesting, and the players should want to do interesting and dramatic things -- perhaps that's how the "points" are awarded?)

* The game is more appealing to the "average person"
* The game is not seen as the exclusive domain of introverted and/or socially awkward people (aka Lawncrappers)
Base the game on "popular", rather than "geek" culture. I think a "Undercover Cop Drama" (for example) style game would appear less strange to the average man on the street than any fantasy or sci-fi setting. Simple rules, so there is no "300 page rulebook" intimidation.

Quote from: warrenInitial thoughts:

* Little to no prep work
* The goal(s) of the game is clear and understood by all players
Obvious (or licensed) setting with an obvious starting situation. Think of the 'high concept' pitch of a movie and so on. (Star Wars, Undercover Cop Drama, Band of Brothers). Maybe rules to help the GM create a good starting situation quickly & easily. On-the-fly NPC generation rules.

* Can be played quickly, perhaps in as little as 2 hours
Simple rules. Template-based character creation (maybe "Chinese menu" style; one from column 'A' another from column 'B'?) Again, have a clear and immediate goal for the players. Simple and clear resolution mechanic. Obvious big end point for each session, so any 2hr session feels like "you got something done". The resolution system should always move things forward in some way, regardless of success or failure.

* Don't require extensive rulebooks to be memorized
Put all the major rules on the character sheet, for quick reference. Clear and simple "Universal" resolution mechanic, so no hunting around for special cases.

* Players can play competitively and not pull their punches
Players get "points" and can keep score relative to each other. Rules are clear and unambiguous, and resolve conflicts in a balanced fashion with a definate outcomes.

* Players can focus on roleplaying their characters rather than creating the overall game narrative
The "overall game narrative" is something which comes 'naturally' out of the players roleplaying their characters (i.e the characters are interesting, and the players should want to do interesting and dramatic things -- perhaps that's how the "points" are awarded?)

* The game is more appealing to the "average person"
* The game is not seen as the exclusive domain of introverted and/or socially awkward people (aka Lawncrappers)
Base the game on "popular", rather than "geek" culture. I think a "Undercover Cop Drama" (for example) style game would appear less strange to the average man on the street than any fantasy or sci-fi setting. Simple rules, so there is no "300 page rulebook" intimidation.

Pretty much what he said...

Except on a few points.

Competetive? Um... I normally run games where the players are cooperating towards a common goal. I think that's the norm. I mean, it can be fun to run that staple-of-anime, the "dueling protagonists" but let's not build it into the game too much.

As for lawncrappers, the signature of a lawncrapper is to take that which is good and pervert it. If we make anything that remotely resembles good, they will find it, obsess over it, and kill it.

Quote from: beejazzCompetetive? Um... I normally run games where the players are cooperating towards a common goal. I think that's the norm. I mean, it can be fun to run that staple-of-anime, the "dueling protagonists" but let's not build it into the game too much.

Yeah, I think that co-op is much more common. But competetive doesn't have to be "kill each other". AGON, as I brought up in the other thread is a cool kind of mix:

Quote from: AgonThe heroes work together against the enemies and obstacles created by the Antagonist (GM), but the players compete to win the most glory for their heroes.The player who earns the most glory wins the game.

Quote from: beejazzAs for lawncrappers, the signature of a lawncrapper is to take that which is good and pervert it. If we make anything that remotely resembles good, they will find it, obsess over it, and kill it.

Yeah, I don't know what you can do about that, apart from appeal to more regular players so the ratio of "lawncrapper:normal players" drops.

The game described above sounds just like Squirrel Attack! the RPG.

Now this is MY kind of challenge! (heh)

The only two thing that I'm worried about is -- first, to what extent you can have all of these things and the players will still roleplay beyond what they would in any other thematic boardgame or CCG.  Then again, you could play D&D without roleplaying too...  I guess I'll have to wait until playtesting to see.

The other thing is the theme I'm using.  Fantasy.  I wanted to go for the old school, late 70s / early 80s era D&D feel.  I'm not sure if that's really all that appealing in and of itself to the general public.  Then again the Lord of the Rings movies did really well... and Harry Potter is super popular too.

This is very inspiring to get things finished up so I can show people what I've been doing, instead of vaguely hand-waving about it.

Competetive kinda takes it out of the territory of almost every RPG.  Even in Paranoia players are, ostensibly, working together toward the same goal.

Didn't someone already do this with ALL FLESH MUST BE EATEN.

I want to see RPGs that are:

* Little to no prep work
Watch a few zombie horror movies. You have already? Good. Read the rulebook. Great. You can now run the game.


* Can be played quickly, perhaps in as little as 2 hours
Get the players to pick a character from the templates in the book. Pick a Deadworld from the back.

* Don't require extensive rulebooks to be memorized
The rulebook has several systems you could use for task resolution, pick one that suits your group, or just the easiest.

* The goal(s) of the game is clear and understood by all players
1) Don't get eaten.
2) If any NPC you encounter isn't breathing shoot it in the head.

* Players can play competitively and not pull their punches

PC1: Give me the shotgun I'm a better shot than you.
PC2: No I found it it's mine.
PC1: Give it hear now.
PC2: BANG!
PC1: Arrgh! My foot! My fucking foot! Why did you do that!
PC2: I was aiming for your head.
PC1: Give me the bloody gun now!

* Players can focus on roleplaying their characters rather than creating the overall game narrative
I focus on staying alive, the roleplaying handles itself.

* The game is more appealing to the "average person"
I ask you what is more appealing than blowing the heads off zombies?

* The game is not seen as the exclusive domain of introverted and/or socially awkward people (aka Lawncrappers)*

I guess zombies are pretty socially awkward, still at least you get to kill them.

Quote from: RPGPunditThere's the goal. What can we do to meet that goal, what are the best ways to make a game like that?

Actually, thinking about this objective a bit more, the Fudge game Mutant Bikers of the Atomic Wasteland might fit most of these critiera.

I have to admit, I really don't have as much to offer until we decide a few basics about the mechanics of a game (which might be best preceded by having some idea of what kind of game this is)... so what kind of game do we make and what mechanics are condusive (is that the right word?) to making this happen?

I myself would dislike something like CSI or mundane realworld stuff, lawncrappers aside. However, I do want to appeal to just about everybody. I propose easily-accessible pseudo-historical pulp. Like pirates. Or cowboys-n-indians (as politically incorrect as that may be). Or... ninjas. But not magic ninjas. Because that is just asking for lawncrapping. And because it's been done. Alot.

Otherwise, a more innocent spin on the dungeon-delve. Something like the Goonies or Scooby-Doo. Just a thought.

Quote from: warren* Little to no prep work
* The goal(s) of the game is clear and understood by all players
Obvious (or licensed) setting with an obvious starting situation. Think of the 'high concept' pitch of a movie and so on. (Star Wars, Undercover Cop Drama, Band of Brothers). Maybe rules to help the GM create a good starting situation quickly & easily. On-the-fly NPC generation rules.

* Can be played quickly, perhaps in as little as 2 hours

Let me cut you off here. I see these as tying together in one aspect. If you want to play in 2 hours, and want to have players to have a clear objective, you have no time to putz around with long intros. The preferred method would be a short intro or right to the action or ... better yet ... throw characters right into the action with no intro. (Say, go around the table, players tell what their characters are. Then the GM says: "Okay, you are on a charter plane flying over the bermuda triangle. A storm rolls in over you, lights flicker and the plane starts to plummet. An island appears below, the pilot makes for it, and you experience a crash landing. As you emerge from the wreckage of the plane, you see an impossibly large lizard emerging from the foilage. WHAT DO YOU DO?)

Feng Shui had a nifty take on this two. You start out in a fight, but the players explain why there are there.

QuoteSimple rules. Template-based character creation (maybe "Chinese menu" style; one from column 'A' another from column 'B'?) Again, have a clear and immediate goal for the players. Simple and clear resolution mechanic. Obvious big end point for each session, so any 2hr session feels like "you got something done". The resolution system should always move things forward in some way, regardless of success or failure.

Okay, was there an implication that you were generating players in those 2 hours? That becomes a taller order. This practically forces you into a paradigm like Over The Edge, which I personally disdain.

That said, I think your goals are worthy here. Commonly recognized archetypes possibly with the potential of a special twist, quirk, or schtick to jazz it up.

The most immediate solution that I would use that I could throw a game together like this would be to take Dream Park, rip the character types out, and implement with FUDGE. That way I could have a reasonable level of detail and stability (10 pre-defined skills in template type package vice 3 "roll your own" that a game like OTE would offer.)

Quote* Don't require extensive rulebooks to be memorized

FUDGE works here.

Quote* The game is more appealing to the "average person"

FUDGE is basically a rules light traditional game. There was some fluffy narrative stuff in it, but the dice mechanic is straightforward and flexible enough to work in a traditional manner.

Scooby-Doo!!! Yes, that's totally where it's at.  

Check out Betrayal at House on the Hill.  I think that's pretty close to what I'm talking about.  Except...you know... different. :-/

Quote from: Caesar SlaadThe preferred method would be a short intro or right to the action or ... better yet ... throw characters right into the action with no intro. (Say, go around the table, players tell what their characters are. Then the GM says: "Okay, you are on a charter plane flying over the bermuda triangle. A storm rolls in over you, lights flicker and the plane starts to plummet. An island appears below, the pilot makes for it, and you experience a crash landing. As you emerge from the wreckage of the plane, you see an impossibly large lizard emerging from the foilage. WHAT DO YOU DO?

Oh yeah, totally.

Quote from: beejazzSomething like the Goonies or Scooby-Doo. Just a thought.

Heh, cool

Yeah, I've always been a big fan of teh Goonies.
It's just... classic.

I've never tried to build an entire game, even hypothetically.  Please bear with me.

FUDGE or FATE seem like solid systems, though something in me leans towards a  BRP-style d100.  With a d100 system you'd have skills and such ranked with percentages, a number system the average jane is pretty familiar with.

Cops and robbers might be boring, but a procedural game would make things really easy for our hypothetical designers.  Each character would have an explicit role to serve in the game, from SWAT types to the hottie DA.

Since police (or the FBI, DEA or whatever) have specific hoops to jump through (that anyone who's ever laid eyes on Law & Order has at least heard tell of) each game would have a solid skeleton that actions would build on.  This would free the GM to plug-n-play the criminals, crimes, clues and so on, eliminating a lot of the "now what?" feeling that you get during prep.

With obvious good guys (the PCs) and obvious bad guys (the crooks), most of the tension would come from the desires of each of the cops to run the investigation his way.  You'd have the Mel Gibson type who wanted to storm in with guns blazing, the straight-arrow chief who's keeping things by the book, the Constitution-first DA, etc.  Each of the PCs has his or her own approach.

I'm totally in agreement with the idea of modular character creation.  In a police procedural, the character sheets could consist of linked pre-printed cards.  Each card would have an archetype name and a listing of skills that archetype has.  To spice things up, there could be a series of flaw cards, focused only on those things the character does poorly.

Example:  I want to make a shooty officer who has his head on straight and puts duty first.  So, I take a "Marksman" card, which has healthy percentages on shooting and firearms skills at the cost of investigational and interpersonal skills.  Next, I take the "Ice Cool" card which, again, trades high percentages in my favored skills for low skills in others.  Finally, to make things interesting, I pick my characters flaw card, "Toe the Line", which puts him at odds with any ideas or actions that go against orthodox police work.

With all my numbers together, I take a few minutes to write up my officer's personal history on a 3x5 card (another damn card!)  In about fifteen minutes I have my character created and ready to roll.