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Other Games, Development, & Campaigns => Design, Development, and Gameplay => Topic started by: Lawbag on August 29, 2006, 07:36:17 AM

Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: Lawbag on August 29, 2006, 07:36:17 AM
Its been some time since this game came out, and Im wondering whether it actually accomplished its intended goals as a cut-down simplier more enjoyable version of DND.

And how does it compare directly with Green Ronin's and Levi's versions?

Or am I best sticking with DND Cyclopedia?
Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: joewolz on August 29, 2006, 09:12:15 AM
I really enjoy the game, but I've just started a campaign of it.  I've done quite a few one shots with it.

It's nostalgic to play, but the system is unified and modern compared to the Cyclopedia.  I think it succeeds with what it's trying to do.
Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: cnath.rm on August 29, 2006, 10:58:32 AM
I got the main two books but haven't been able to play, is it just me or are there no demons or devils in the monster section of the Monsters and Treasure book?
Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: Mr. Christopher on August 29, 2006, 11:22:33 AM
Quote from: Lawbag
Its been some time since this game came out, and Im wondering whether it actually accomplished its intended goals as a cut-down simplier more enjoyable version of DND.

And how does it compare directly with Green Ronin's and Levi's versions?

Or am I best sticking with DND Cyclopedia?

I'll pimp Erin D. Smale's house rules again:

http://www.tridrpg.org/

Smale's adapted the best parts of C&C's "SIEGE Engine" to the Cyclopedia, so if you want the best of both systems his site's worth a visit.
Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: JamesV on August 29, 2006, 11:44:27 AM
Quote from: William G. Gruff
Smale's adapted the best parts of C&C's "SIEGE Engine" to the Cyclopedia, so if you want the best of both systems his site's worth a visit.


I'm not quite liking the magic system, but the rest of it is excellent and reccomendable to anyone looking to make the RC better.
Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: jrients on August 29, 2006, 11:52:02 AM
Quote from: Lawbag
Its been some time since this game came out, and Im wondering whether it actually accomplished its intended goals as a cut-down simplier more enjoyable version of DND.

And how does it compare directly with Green Ronin's and Levi's versions?


Are you fond of a lot of character classes, big books of monsters, and treasure tables?  C&C whups both in those areas.  There's a lot of games that I could run using True20 or Perfect20, but for old fashion monster-stomping treasure-grabbing fantasy I would choose C&C every time.

Quote
Or am I best sticking with DND Cyclopedia?


I can't blame someone for sticking with the Cyclopedia.  It's one of the best one-book RPGs every written.  But if I were pitching a game to a group of players who weren't there for the glory days of Basic/Expert/whatever D&D, then I would go with C&C.  The fact that it is in print and supported keeps you from having to deflect arguments about playing an 'old' or 'dead' game.  And the rules are close enough to mainstream D&D as to allow easier transitions for players.
Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: JongWK on August 29, 2006, 11:54:27 AM
Can someone give a short explanation of C&C?
Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: cnath.rm on August 29, 2006, 11:58:03 AM
Quote from: JongWK
Can someone give a short explanation of C&C?
1st Ed AD&D except simplified with one roll system. (you always want to roll high, just like in 3rd ed.)
Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: Mcrow on August 29, 2006, 12:00:37 PM
Quote from: JongWK
Can someone give a short explanation of C&C?


Well it is basically old school D&D. Maybe a mix of 1st, 2nd , and 3rd edition in some ways.

Attacks roll d20 + attack bonus, if you roll over the AC of the target you hit. Hit points and AC work basically the same as D&D 3.5.

The Siege Engine is used in place of a skill system. You choose 2 stats as your "primes" (IIRC, 3 for humans). All checks are stat checks and the base DC is 18 (I think), but 12 instead if the stat you are using is a "prime" stat.
Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: RPGPundit on August 29, 2006, 12:30:52 PM
I would say that, in essence, they didn't really succeed at what they were doing. The claim was that C&C would be like old school RC D&D or AD&D 1st. Instead, what it really ended up being was a simplified version of D&D 3.x with some nostalgia slapped on like a coat of paint.

On the other hand, that doesn't mean C&C is bad. Its still playable, and now it actually has a setting worth playing in what with Necromancer deciding to shift the Wilderlands/Invincible Overlord setting over to C&C (that automatically adds another coat of nostalgia paint on top of C&C, btw).

Its just, if you really want Old School, you have to go Old School.  I know that between C&C and The Rules Cyclopedia, I'm going with the RC every time.

RPGPundit
Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: jrients on August 29, 2006, 12:40:28 PM
While I wouldn't go as far as calling it "D&D 3.x with some nostalgia slapped on like a coat of paint" I would agree that the final draft of C&C came out mechanically more like 3.x than I was expecting.  But I still think its a neat little game.  If mastery of the 3.5 version of the game wasn't my own personal great white whale, I'd probably be running C&C right now.
Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: Pete on August 29, 2006, 04:43:21 PM
Quote from: RPGPundit

On the other hand, that doesn't mean C&C is bad. Its still playable, and now it actually has a setting worth playing in what with Necromancer deciding to shift the Wilderlands/Invincible Overlord setting over to C&C (that automatically adds another coat of nostalgia paint on top of C&C, btw).
RPGPundit


Actually, Necromancer is not shifing anything over to C&C -- in fact, Necro has said that after Tegel Manor is published (GenCon '07 is the latest release date), they won't be doing any more Judges Guild stuff.  The new Wilderlands project is a separate entity that's going to be published through Troll Lords.
Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: Lawbag on August 29, 2006, 05:08:06 PM
I was expecting Levi to come in and pimp (in a good way) his game, because his is the only free D20 variant of the trio.
Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: joewolz on August 30, 2006, 05:39:27 PM
Levi's game is pretty cool, but it doesn't beat C&C.  I'm too young for the RC to seem playable, having only been introduced to roleplaying through AD&D 2nd...which I never liked.

C&C is more than nostalgia, it's a good rules light system that to me is a decent version of d20.  What I don't like about d20 are the damn skills and feats and all that extraneous stuff.  I'd like to have a bit more control over my character in a fantasy story.
Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: Levi Kornelsen on August 30, 2006, 06:12:13 PM
Quote from: Lawbag
I was expecting Levi to come in and pimp (in a good way) his game, because his is the only free D20 variant of the trio.


*Shrug*

I haven't played C&C, so I can't make a good comparison to pimp with.
Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: Yamo on August 30, 2006, 06:38:12 PM
I have some issues with it, but overall yes.

I am still at a loss for why I would use it over AD&D or the Cyclopedia, though. I'm not a "newer is better" kind of guy.
Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: Abyssal Maw on August 30, 2006, 07:25:38 PM
I bought the C&C players handbook at GenCon but haven't really even looked at it much. I'll report back on it in a while. I like it, but I'm not looking to replace my weekly D&D campaign with it.

Check this out:

http://basicfantasy.newcenturycomputers.net/main.html

It's someone who took the SRD and reverse-enginerred Basic D&D out of it. What a kick ass idea!

(PS. ALSO FREE)
Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: Caesar Slaad on August 30, 2006, 07:40:20 PM
Quote from: Lawbag
Its been some time since this game came out, and Im wondering whether it actually accomplished its intended goals as a cut-down simplier more enjoyable version of DND.

And how does it compare directly with Green Ronin's and Levi's versions?

Or am I best sticking with DND Cyclopedia?


I'd say its real remit is making a retro D&D.

I'd personally play any of those 3 before C&C.
Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: JamesV on August 30, 2006, 09:52:42 PM
Quote from: Mcrow
The Siege Engine is used in place of a skill system. You choose 2 stats as your "primes" (IIRC, 3 for humans). All checks are stat checks and the base DC is 18 (I think), but 12 instead if the stat you are using is a "prime" stat.


Seige is a big part of what makes the game different. A DC of 18 for any skill not associated with your primes is a hefty obstacle and at lower levels even the 12 DC can make you sweat a little. If you follow the rules as written, it certainly ensures a good deal of niche protection. It also means that you oughtta be running the game in an older-school style, where not every activity requires a roll.

It's well made, and is indeed D&D 3.x made simple. However I point to Gruff's link to Erin Smale's house rules and note that a good deal of them are rules from the Seige Engine tweaked to fit in RC D&D and makes something genuinely old-school in flavor.
Title: Did Castles and Crusades perform its remit?
Post by: cnath.rm on August 30, 2006, 11:33:33 PM
For anyone looking to pick up the books, Zomben over at rpg.net is selling some off, I have a 1st ed. one up for auction, but his is the corrected 2nd ed. version which I'd be picking up if I had the extra cash. http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?t=283195
Don't mean to threadcrap, just figured I'd pass it on in case anyone was interested enough by this thread to go looking for a cheap copy.