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Author Topic: [D6 Renaissance] WoW D6.  (Read 1503 times)

J Arcane

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[D6 Renaissance] WoW D6.
« on: August 23, 2009, 08:44:29 PM »
Since the release of D6 into the OGL, I've been eager to get my mitts on it and do unspeakable things with the mechanics.  Of course the first thought was bringing my Song in the Dark project into the fold, an idea that I have ultimately decided to go forward with after an honest evaluation of how my existing system meshed with the desired feel of the setting.

However, there's not much fun system monkeying to be had there (though I've got a few cool ideas, the fear level and humanity systems I'm still trying to hash out I think will be quite cool once they work).  I'm not the sort of person who likes to just throw up a quick conversion generally, I want to really bend the thing in interesting ways.

So I got to thinking that my other obvious idea had been a proper D&D-style fantasy mod for the game, akin to the Dungeon Fantasy freebie for GURPS.  But D&D does D&D well enough on it's own, really.

So then, it hit me that if I wanted to do loot and level fantasy, what I should really be doing is WoW.  I was deeply disappointed in the terribleness of the official product, and felt it served poorly for emulating the source material.  There's an incredible amount of lore and flavor and fun to be had with the Warcraft universe, but the existing tabletop versions are dismal, and the game itself doesn't really allow room for exploring it in anything other than prescribed ways.  

Why D6 though?  Because it's there, and because I think the mechanics of the system are potentially tailor made for abstracting what is actually a hideously complex game down to something that will be playable on the tabletop.  As we get further into brainstorming the system and some of the ideas for it, I think we'll see what I mean.

For now, I'm starting this thread mostly as a placeholder, and a place to dump ideas as I go along.  Subsequent posts after this introduction will detail specific mechanical ideas on how to adapt the concept and feel of WoW into the D6 framework, and then from there actual details of classes and abilities will emerge.
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J Arcane

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[D6 Renaissance] WoW D6.
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2009, 08:16:42 PM »
Alright, now that I've spoiled all your hopes and dreams by making this thread with nothing in it, it's time to get down to the actual details.  

Character creation is always the place I'm inclined to start in any project, because basically everything else in a game is nothing more than arbitrating the interactions between the elements of the characters involved.  

For starters of course, we keep the WoW attributes:  Strength, Stamina, Agility, Intellect, Spirit.  I'll break these down in a second as to what they describe both in and out of combat and what skills fall under them, but I want to stop for a moment and consider ahead of time one of the key parts of WoW's gameplay:  Loot.

In WoW, we have stats that are just near arbitrary numbers of a potentially infinite range, and formulas that then take those numbers and derive substats from them like attack power, critical chance, hitpoints, etc.  Most gear then adds to these stats, thus subsequently raising an derived values (some gear also adds directly to the derived values, but we'll ignore those for the sake of simplicity, as I intend for few of these to remain).

But in D6, we have a bit of a problem with doing this, because while it is true that D6 stats can also become infinitely large, there are practical limits to how big those dice pools can get before it becomes potentially annoying and slows down gameplay.  Rolling 20-30D every time you have to make a melee attack or cast a spell could get old fast.  Which means gear bonuses would have to be pretty much around +1d or 2d tops, and even then, a full set of magic stuff could add up to a hell of a lot depending on how many gear types we keep.  

So making gear that adds die code directly has very practical limits on how much the gear can improve over time, and getting newer, better gear is one of the key parts of a game intended to emulate some of the WoW experience.  While I would obviously like to tone things down a bit to allow for an expanded focus on non-combat gameplay in the Warcraft universe, I'm not comfortable consigning gear to the status of marginal bonuses.

So we have to trick the system here.  We need a way to add to the stats, without adding to the stats, as it were.  So we have two options here:  We take stat bonuses from gear as a flat add to all rolls, separate but added to the die code of a stat.  So a piece of gear that had, say, +4 Strength, it just means add 4 to any Strength rolls.  But this only works if we use the standard D6 rolling method of adding up dice plus pips for a total, and this bumps up against one of my other intents:  simplifying combat and damage numbers.

See, I intend to keep hit points, it wouldn't be WoW without them, but what I want to avoid is excessive escalation of the numbers, which is actually one of my pet peeves even within the original game, but also for practical reasons of reducing the amount of necessary math in play.  

So we turn the system on it's head a bit, and use Legend-style die rolls, looking for successes, but then we count those successes as damage against a hit point total.  We keep the usual combat system mostly as is, we just up the number of hits it takes to eliminate a player a bit.  We keep the actual numbers down at a lower point, can get away without escalating hitpoints, the math of the roll itself is quicker, and so forth.  But while we could still keep the previously considered approach of flat bonuses to stat rolls and just make them bonus successes, unless we reign them in just as much as we would if we were adding die codes, we quickly wind up with a system where the actual die roll part of things matters so little as to be pointless.

And then I hit upon another possibility, and it borrows, oddly enough, from a concept I didn't actually like in the game:  "Ratings".  I mentioned above, but basically how these work is as an additional seperation layer between the actual end effect desired, and the numbers that effect is derived from.  How it works is much like stats themselves, an arbitrary number, but one that is then put through a simple formula to get the effect in play.  For example, my lvl 80 Death Knight has a critical strike rating stat affected by both gear and base stats, and for every ~46 points of that stat, his chance to get a critical strike goes up 1%.  

This all sounds terribly convoluted, and the way it's implemented in game, it really is, but in concept it's not actually that much different than D&D's stat vs. actual bonus set up.  The only difference in the original calculation is that interim values between the mark still have an effect, so if I only have 23 rating from a piece of gear or something, I still get 0.5% to my chance to crit, where as in D&D, if I have an odd number in my stat, it's mostly worthless until I get that next point and my bonus actually increases.

So we borrow this idea, but bringing it back closer to the D&D mold from whence it came.  We flip around our usual assumptions of the system, and we make the die code the derived value, and the base stat a number, that at a given threshold adds another die to the die code, the part we actually roll when we want to do stuff.  I had thought of even basing the progression here directly on the amount of character points needed to move from one die to the next, but then realized such a thing would be needlessly complicated in the context of a game where these derivations will have to be performed every time someone finds a new piece of gear, and while a table lookup would speed it up a bit, I think setting the mark for each new code at a simple arbitrary point, say 3 just for argument's sake, would be much easier.  

however, after considering this solution, and generally liking it for the room it gives one to play around with gear numbers and stat bonuses, it also leaves me to reconsider my supposedly clever notion about using the Legend mechanic, because going with Classic dice + pips gives me a wider range of derived values without too harshly increasing the effect between them, and that means I can set the threshhold for each new die code lower, thus reducing the amount of "empty points" that don't result in an increase in actual capability.  One of my goals here in adapting the game is that I would like to cut as many of these "empty points" situations out of the game as possible, there will be no "dead levels" for instance, and no burning 5 points on a talent before it actually generates enough of an effect to be worth it.

So, maybe my clever idea wasn't so clever after all, and we're better putting up with a little extra addition, and sticking with Classic.  It will also cut down on what I was starting to foresee as some potentially inconsistent die usages later (rolling for initial HP, for example).  

So, wrapping this up to an end result, let's write some draft rules for stats:

There are five stats in WoWD6:

Strength:  Your character's raw physical strength, affects physical skills that rely on brute force, melee damage and ability with heavy melee weapons
Stamina:  Your character's endurance and physical energy, affects you hit points and regeneration thereof, ability to resist diseases and other physical effects, and physical skills that rely on one's ability to perform for long periods or resist pain
Agility:  Your character's coordination and physical dexterity, affects physical skills based on gross motor skills, skill and damage with ranged and light melee weapons
Intellect:  Your characters reasoning and analytical skills and force of mind, affects mental skills that rely on knowledge and logic, damage and skill with arcane spells, most trade skills
Spirit:  Your character's innate mental will and charisma, affects social skills and skills involving mental willpower, base mana points and regeneration thereof, healing spell effect

To generate a character's initial stats, distribute 100 points, with no stat being lower than 12, or higher than 30.  No stat may ever go lower than 3.

In addition, each stat has a die code.  For every 3 points in a stat, the die code goes up one pip, starting from 1D.  A handy reference table for this follows (which I really hope the forum doesn't break):  

Base Stat   Die Code
      
3-5      1D
6-8      1D+1
9-11      1D+2
12-14      2D
15-17      2D+1
18-20      2D+2
21-23      3D
24-26      3D+1
27-29      3D+2
30-32      4D
33-35      4D+1
36-38      4D+2
39-41      5D
42-44      5D+1
45-47      5D+2
48-50      6D
51-53      6D+1
54-56      6D+2
57-59      7D
61-62      7D+1
63-65      7D+2
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Age of Fable

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[D6 Renaissance] WoW D6.
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2009, 09:46:35 PM »
Quote from: J Arcane;323618
But in D6, we have a bit of a problem with doing this, because while it is true that D6 stats can also become infinitely large, there are practical limits to how big those dice pools can get before it becomes potentially annoying and slows down gameplay.  Rolling 20-30D every time you have to make a melee attack or cast a spell could get old fast.  Which means gear bonuses would have to be pretty much around +1d or 2d tops, and even then, a full set of magic stuff could add up to a hell of a lot depending on how many gear types we keep.


You could turn large numbers into bigger dice. For example 8D could become 2d6 + 2d20.
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J Arcane

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[D6 Renaissance] WoW D6.
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2009, 09:47:52 PM »
Quote from: Age of Fable;323639
You could turn large numbers into bigger dice. For example 8D could become 2d6 + 2d20.
Ahh, but then I'm not really playing D6 at all then, am I?  ;)
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Age of Fable

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[D6 Renaissance] WoW D6.
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2009, 09:50:52 PM »
I guess not...maybe 8D could be 2D x 4 ?

This would have the advantage of giving a good spread of results as well. Rolling 8 dice, you're almost always going to get pretty close to the centre of possible totals.
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J Arcane

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[D6 Renaissance] WoW D6.
« Reply #5 on: August 25, 2009, 05:38:37 PM »
Now for some easy stuff, we need a skill list.  For now, I'm going to assemble a tentative list of skills, to get the job out of the way, and leave any future work on them one of modification rather than whole cloth manufacturing.  I've some thoughts in a bit about crafting, which will follow in the next post.


Strength
<2-Handed Weapon>
Jumping
Unarmed
Lifting

Stamina
Swimming
Running

Agility
<1H Weapon>

Thrown Weapons
Dodge
Parry
Block
Lockpicking (Rogue)
Pickpocketing (Rogue)
Stealth (Rogue, Druid)
Riding
Acrobatics
Balance
Climbing
Vehicles

Intellect

Wands
Poisons (Rogue)
Runeforging (Death Knight)
Alchemy (C)
Blacksmithing (C)
Enchanting (C)
Engineering (C)
Leatherworking (C)
Tailoring (C)
Jewelcrafting (C)
Inscription (C)
Cooking
First Aid
Arcane Lore
Cartography
History
Lore
Research
Survival

Spirit
Perception
Willpower
Disguise


Gambling
Trading
Investigation
Public Speaking
Con
Persuasion
Tracking
Command
Search
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J Arcane

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[D6 Renaissance] WoW D6.
« Reply #6 on: August 25, 2009, 05:57:45 PM »
Assigning skills is standard D6 method, assigning 7D to whatever skills the player desires, using the stat die code as the base.  Splitting them into pips is allowed.

There is special consideration however, for crafting skills, marked with a (C).  These are advanced skills, that cannot be used untrained.  In addition, while they technically fall under the banner of Intellect, they do not derive from it as ordinary skills.  Rather, they are bought at a base of 1D and improved on their own.  The crafting of magical artifacts is a difficult skill that takes much practice and training, and is not easily executed by just anyone.

I'm still debating how crafting will actually work, however.  The obvious, and most direct method is simply adapting directly from the game, with a set list of recipes learned with progressive skill (or perhaps just assigned difficulty levels that effectively require higher and higher skill).  

What I'm thinking instead however, is more of an "effects-based" system, where the player or GM can define the desired stats, and each costs a set number of points that add to the difficulty of crafting the item.  This cuts down on the amount of lists I have to write, allows for more player customization thus increasing their appeal, and also has the bonus of potentially doubling as a framework for the GM's own loot determination system.  

Seasoned players however, may notice I've left out the gathering skills.  This is largely because I didn't see them as especially applicable to a tabletop game, farming for crafting mats isn't terribly exciting even in the game.  I think perhaps it is best left up to the GM as to how the materials for a crafting attempt are obtained.  I think the gear system will probably include some formula for determining a default price, and so one could just have the player pay the gold to build the item.  For more advanced recipes of significant power, the GM may wish to make a quest of it, declaring the player needs some particularly rare materials that will require dangerous questing to acquire.  There is some precedent for this in WoW already, after all, such as the Core Leather skinned from Core Hounds in Molten Core, the Deviate Scale found in the depths of the Wailing Caverns, or the Frozen Orbs carried by many of the epic bosses in Northrend, or the shards of legendary weapons dropped by some of the bosses in Azeroth that then must be reforged and recrafted.  Keep an eye out and an open mind for possible cool ideas to make crafting more exciting than just adding up some numbers and paying a fee.  Part of the motivation for bringing WoW to tabletop after all, is focusing on the epic fun and creativity, without the tedium any MMO sometimes brings.
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J Arcane

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[D6 Renaissance] WoW D6.
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2009, 11:07:49 PM »
Fucking spammers bumping my thread.

So a few nights back, I had a whole post on here, as I walked through defining the combat system, and in particular the initiative system, but then my damn power blew, and took the internet with it.  I lost the post, and haven't been online for days.

I'd gone and done a whole bunch of math developing an initiative/turn system sort of similar to the one in the new HMb and the old SFB, but now after having time to think about it I think what I came up with is probably still rubbish.  So not only did I put a bunch of work into something that got deleted, it wasn't even good work at the end of the day anyway.

Basically what I did was take the "continuous initiative" option in the core book, and extend it out to a full turn system.  You roll Agility + Weapon Speed and that gives you a Spd off the table between 2 and 6, and then you act every multiple of that Spd in seconds.  So a Spd 3 acts on 3, 6, 9, etc, until the round ends at 60.

But honestly in hind sight, while it simulates the way the original game works fairly well, at least in respects to Weapon DPS, I think it's also still rather out of balance, and exactly the kind of fiddly bit I'm trying to strip away here.

So instead, for combat, I think we stick with standard initiative system, with the weapon speed option.  I'd still like some kind of alternative to the D6 multiple action system.  I don't like it, it's dirty, annoying to keep track of, and makes a mess of the turn structure.  I'd like to have some sort of option here to allow multiple actions in a turn, just not the one there.  

Combat rolls are always contested now, none of the can-he/can't-he defend of the standard system.  Weapon Skill vs. Dodge/Block/Parry to hit.  Dodge works against all attacks, Parry and Block against melee only (if using map/minis you could also rule here they only work from the front arc).  Damage rolls are Str/Agi + weapon damage vs. Stamina + armor.

Special note here though for magic attacks.  WoW spells do have to roll to hit and damage in the original, so I'd like to keep that here.  So for spells that target an enemy, we also do an attack roll, Intellect vs. Spirit for the base, and then Int + spell damage vs. Stam + resistance for damage.  Resistance comes from gear only, and maybe some talents (as soon as I work out how the hell talents are going to work).

Damage is done to Health, which are like Body Points.  You get a base number from your class + Stam score.  If you hit 0, you are dead.   Better hope the priest has enough mana at the end of the fight to res you, because res spells only work on fresh corpses.  

Spell casters (Mage, Druid, Priest) also get Mana, which they spend on spells of course.  This is a base value + Int score.  If you hit 0, you can't cast anything.  Duh.  

Getting mana and health back will take rest.  For health, a day's rest and a proper meal earns back a Stam roll's worth of hit points.  For mana, an hour's rest and rehydration earns a Spirit roll in mana points.

Non-spell casters may have resource to spend of their own.  These will generally be simpler than mana, and will be decided as I get to the classes.  the trouble here is that basically all the classes have their own special flavor of power, each with unique traits.  For now, I'm thinking each class will have a bar of ten points, tracked WW dots style, but how those points are spent/regenerated will vary by class.

Rest of combat is as described in D6 corebook (the old one, all thin with the big D6 in the middle of the cover).  I'll get some base stats up for weapon and armor types next.
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J Arcane

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[D6 Renaissance] WoW D6.
« Reply #8 on: September 08, 2009, 06:37:20 PM »
I realized shortly after writing my last post that I'd forgotten to include a critical mechanic.  I've expressed in the past my dissatisfaction with the wild die, and that remains, but I didn't really have any alternative mechanic.

Then I got to thinking about the spellcasting mechanic in WFRP, and realized that was basically a die pool mechanic as well, so the it could just as easily be adapted to D6.

So here's the preliminary idea:  Whenever a player gets 2 or more D6s on a single attack roll, he's scored a potential critical.  Make a second check, between the critting player's Agi and the target's Stam for physical attacks (melee or ranged), and Int and Spirit for magical attacks.  On a successful check, the crit is confirmed, and the attacker doubles the contribution of their affecting stat to the damage roll (Str for heavy melee, Agi for ranged and light weapons, Int for spells).

I haven't worked out any math on this yet for probabilities, but it sounds good on the surface.  Technically it does mean that an Int or Agi below 2d can never crit, but I don't foresee that being a huge issue for PCs (maybe casters trying to melee, at most), and is fine to me for NPCs.  

Maybe later I'll fire up FreeBasic, or call on some programmer buddies, and see if I can't throw together a quick program to do the math for me.
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J Arcane

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[D6 Renaissance] WoW D6.
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2009, 12:02:50 AM »
Crossposted from the WEG boards:  

Quote
I was rustier than I thought when it came to trying to figure out how to run the numbers for my aforementioned critical houserule, but thankfully I found SmallRoller instead.

Here's the likelihood of rolling at least 2 6s on a pool of dice, from 1-10:

1D: 0%
2D: 2.78%
3D: 7.41%
4D: 13.19%
5D: 19.62%
6D: 26.32%
7D: 33.02%
8D: 39.53%
9D: 45.73%
10D: 51.33%

So as we can see, that solution isn't much of one, if we're shooting for a relatively low mark. By 5D we've already exceeded the crit chance from the Wild Die, and within 2 more dice we've matched the overall anomalous result chance of the Wild Die.

I ran the numbers on triple 6's as well, and that's a little better, 9D to hit roughly the same crit chance as 1/6 (17.83%), and 12D to hit roughly 33% (32.36% to be precise). But we do have the problem that now both 1D and 2D aren't possible to crit. I was OK cutting off 1D, it's basically the lowest mark in the game, and most any PC is probably going to have at least 2D.

I also checked out what it comes out to get exactly double 6s, instead of at least 2 6s, and found a "Storyteller" effect in a way. It hits 1/6th (16.08% to be exact) at the same mark, 5D, but then the probability curve caps out 11D with 29.61%, then it actually starts going down, not by much, but enough that by 22D, we're right back down to 16.74%.

So I'm not sure any of these mechanics is really a serviceable alternative.
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