You heard me.

That big theory thing that occasionally gets waved about, yammering about rewards?

D&D is the king of intuitive rewards.

At base, you find the challenging encounter.  You kick it's ever-lovin' ass.  You get the Xp and the loot.  You use those to become more proficient at...

What's that?  Kicking ass?  

That's the stuff.

Not only that, but in D&D, you become more proficient in kicking ass in a way that is unique and differentiated to suit you - meaning that while we're all in the same rat race, we're doing it in in different ways, which means that we don't feel like we're stepping on each other's toes, but instead encourage us to work together.

So, the next time I hear someone call the whole "rewards thing" a flakey piece of theory garble, I may feel the need to ask them if they don't like D&D.

Just, so y'all know.

Yup.  And that's just part of why I adore the game so much.

D&D is awesome.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenD&D is the king of intuitive rewards.

Abso-frickin'-lutely. :win:

It taps into a cycle that's omnipresent in the literature of its genre:  the apprentice warrior who proves his worth by defeating progressively larger enemies, until he is so far from being an "apprentice" that one can barely remember the hazy beginnings of his ass-kicking quest.

Part of D&D's brilliance is how it ties that all up in a nice, tightly wound package that anyone at all can immediately grasp.

I've always thought that Levels are, in fact, a big part of that.  If you say to somebody "Well, if you defeat the next thousand monsters, you'll have advanced all the way to godhood" (or the like) ... well, that's a long way away, and hard to grasp.  But if you say "If you defeat these two goblins then you'll finally advance to second level, and you'll roll a whole new d8 to add to your hit points!  You'll be well-nigh indestructible!", that's an immediate goal that they can understand in the context of what they're doing today.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenD&D is the king of intuitive rewards.

Doubleplusagree.

D&D has a really great cycle of kicking ass => improving => even more serious ass-kicking => even more improvement => Chuck Norris etc.

I try really hard to accomplish the same flow with my current homebrew project, although its difficult to have a constant flow throughout the game session if you have a more mission-based and less encounter-based structure.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenYou heard me.

That big theory thing that occasionally gets waved about, yammering about rewards?

D&D is the king of intuitive rewards.

At base, you find the challenging encounter.  You kick it's ever-lovin' ass.  You get the Xp and the loot.  You use those to become more proficient at...

What's that?  Kicking ass?  

That's the stuff.

Not only that, but in D&D, you become more proficient in kicking ass in a way that is unique and differentiated to suit you - meaning that while we're all in the same rat race, we're doing it in in different ways, which means that we don't feel like we're stepping on each other's toes, but instead encourage us to work together.

So, the next time I hear someone call the whole "rewards thing" a flakey piece of theory garble, I may feel the need to ask them if they don't like D&D.

Just, so y'all know.

I think the whole rewards thing is a flakey piece of theory garble, and I don't care for D&D. I don't like designers telling me how I should play a game, so the first thing I usually do with games not my own is rip out the set reward mechanisms and replace them with ones depending on showing up or on periodicity. If it's too difficult to do that I toss them into the circular file. That's one of the things I love most about Pundit's FTA! - you advance in level by adventures completed.

Just so's we're clear on where we all stand.

-clash

And I would only add that I hope kicking ass is used only figuratively in this thread.

Cause, ya know, some sensitive D&D player might get the feeling you're implying hack n' slash/munchkinism is the only point to D&D.  Ya know, that you only roll-play not role-play.

But, I know Levi wouldn't mean that.  He's to nice a guy.  And I'm sure he knows you can play games of court intrigue or mystery with D&D just as well.

So before this blows up into a war, I thought I'd make sure we're all on the same page.

Quote from: James J SkachBut, I know Levi wouldn't mean that.  He's to nice a guy.  And I'm sure he knows you can play games of court intrigue or mystery with D&D just as well.

'Course you can.  But when you do, the system doesn't have your back as much...

...Unless you, oh, say, use one of the thousand-odd different ways of adjusting rewards to suit that are described all over the place in D&D books.

Quote from: flyingmiceI think the whole rewards thing is a flakey piece of theory garble, and I don't care for D&D. I don't like designers telling me how I should play a game,

Really?  Interesting.

I like it when designers try to help my group point itself at what they consider the fun stuff.

THat's quite a difference of perspective, innit?

Quote from: Levi KornelsenReally?  Interesting.

I like it when designers try to help my group point itself at what they consider the fun stuff.

THat's quite a difference of perspective, innit?

Yep! There's no disputing matters of taste. Doesn't mean D&D isn't good, just means it's not good for me.

-clash

You guys are doing this all wrong.  One of you has to claim the the way D&D does reward systems, the fact that it's the most popular game in the world, proves that reward systems done the way D&D does it is inherently the right and proper way to design a game and anything else is wrong and/or not really an RPG.

I mean, all this agreeing to disagree on matters of taste.  Where will that get us?

Clash - do you have anything that could even be considered a reward system in your games? Just curious given your original "rewards systems are stupid" perspective...

Quote from: James J SkachYou guys are doing this all wrong.  One of you has to claim the the way D&D does reward systems, the fact that it's the most popular game in the world, proves that reward systems done the way D&D does it is inherently the right and proper way to design a game and anything else is wrong and/or not really an RPG.

I mean, all this agreeing to disagree on matters of taste.  Where will that get us?

If you ever meet someone less likely to get into that argument than Levi and I, let me know...

-clash

I like D&D, but I like other games more.

IMO, D&D's reward system is one the best. I can respect D&D for the fact that it makes no attempt to cover the fact that the more ass you kick the more powerful you get and then you can kick even more ass....ect...

I'd also like to point out that D&D also suggests rewards for things other than kicking as aswell. It seems to get missed pretty often.

Yeah, the D&D reward system more often used as a point system of sorts, not unlike video gamse of the 80's, but that is most of the time as a result of the play style the group playing likes.

Quote from: James J SkachClash - do you have anything that could even be considered a reward system in your games? Just curious given your original "rewards systems are stupid" perspective...

In all my games, your character is rewarded only by surviving. Every in-game year - or every in-game half-year, depending on the game - the character gets to improve a skill or get a new one. Character advancement is identical to Character Generation, so you can play a character for a couple years, then advance him two more, then play some more, etc. You can also reconstitute a character at any arbitrary point in the past by reversing the advancement. Say you start a character at 35 years old, play him for a couple years, then decide to go back to the time he was 12, play an flashback adventure, then advance him to 22, then back up to 38. It's wierd, but it works.

-clash

Quote from: Levi KornelsenYou heard me.

That big theory thing that occasionally gets waved about, yammering about rewards?

D&D is the king of intuitive rewards.

At base, you find the challenging encounter.  You kick it's ever-lovin' ass.  You get the Xp and the loot.  You use those to become more proficient at...

What's that?  Kicking ass?  

That's the stuff.

Not only that, but in D&D, you become more proficient in kicking ass in a way that is unique and differentiated to suit you - meaning that while we're all in the same rat race, we're doing it in in different ways, which means that we don't feel like we're stepping on each other's toes, but instead encourage us to work together.

So, the next time I hear someone call the whole "rewards thing" a flakey piece of theory garble, I may feel the need to ask them if they don't like D&D.

Just, so y'all know.

There's a second layer on top of that as well:

Levelling up unlocks more interesting adversaries, which is a reward in itself. You start out battling goblins. You end up battling demons and bizarre creatures out of nightmares. There's a progression. The battles become more complex and difficult to master. But they also become more (what?) rewarding.

But I think you miss the point: there is actually a hell of a lot of flakey theory garble regarding rewards. Because they'll eventually change the term to mean "social validation" or something similar.

Another nice reward system is the standard Palladium one that is in every game from TMNT to Rifts.