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Other Games, Development, & Campaigns => Design, Development, and Gameplay => Topic started by: T-Willard on July 17, 2006, 02:18:06 PM

Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: T-Willard on July 17, 2006, 02:18:06 PM
I've been thinking.

Why is Burst Fire its own feat?

If you've ever been trained on an assault rifle or other automatic weapon, you get training in burst fire (Which takes about 10 minutes) and most modern assault rifles have a built in burst setting.

So why wasn't the burst fire option just folded into the Advanced Firearms Profecency? You're already learning how to use automatic fire (which is pretty goddamn useless as written) with assault rifles, why not Burst Fire?
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: Hastur T. Fannon on July 17, 2006, 04:03:56 PM
Because the people who wrote d20 Modern knew nothing about firearms? (look at the weapon ranges)

No, I don't see any reason for this, but I'm not sure why each heavy weapon has it's separate exotic proficiency either
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: Wolvorine on July 17, 2006, 04:44:03 PM
You know the answer to this, B'wana....   it's bullshit, fix it!  :)

It'd take what, 2 pages max?  heh
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: Bagpuss on July 17, 2006, 05:44:00 PM
And also why does Burst Fire make it harder to hit someone, when the point of it is to make it more likely that you hit someone? :ponder:

Oh yeah game balance.... :brood:
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: T-Willard on July 18, 2006, 12:25:22 AM
Quote from: Bagpuss
And also why does Burst Fire make it harder to hit someone, when the point of it is to make it more likely that you hit someone? :ponder:

Oh yeah game balance.... :brood:


The whole point of burst fire was to put multiple rounds within the same space before barrel rise takes the barrel too far off target.

The feat and mechanics negate it.

Speaking as someone who has actually used burst fire one handed (the infamous sling wrap method of one handed shooting) and full auto, burst fire is a FUCKLOAD more accurate, and a lot more devestating that single shot.

The rules are FUBAR'd, and I can't figure out why.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: Bagpuss on July 18, 2006, 08:09:39 AM
It because WotC worship at the temple of game balance, "if it does more damage it must be harder to hit" (like Power Attack). :brood:

They also say that D20 Modern is a game and reflect action movies more than reality. It is not ment to simulate reality. So the best idea is to forget about it and try and not let reality get in the way of having fun. :(

What I can't understand is that the Burst Fire and Autofire rules bug the hell out of me in D20 Modern, but in Feng Shui where Burst and autofire has no effect other than to look cool, I'm fine with. :imsorry:

I personally find Autofire more annoying.

A_C_XX__
____XE_C

Attacker (A) can hit enemy (E) but not hit Civilians (C), by targeting area (X) inculding the enemies square. The bullets just magically appear in those four squares and stop before exiting them.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: blakkie on July 18, 2006, 09:06:14 AM
Quote from: Bagpuss
I personally find Autofire more annoying.

A_C_XX__
____XE_C

Attacker (A) can hit enemy (E) but not hit Civilians (C), by targeting area (X) inculding the enemies square. The bullets just magically appear in those four squares and stop before exiting them.

That's how D20m works? :confused: Ya, I'm not sure exactly how that is suppose to "reflect action movies"? Here I was thinking I really should be giving D20m a chance by looking through it as opposed to thinking that the whole concept of guns in D&D wasn't still busted.

On the subject of poorer aim with burst fire; It's an old saw in games with firearms, and making it harder to hit isn't actually strictly required for balance. It is probably the quickest patch to do it, and because it's the most immediate place to do it it seems to be done a lot.  In truth the objective of balance, in this instance, would be to encourage a mixture of semi-auto versus always using burst fire.  There is an actual reason to use semi-auto versus burst fire, ammo conservation.  So if you design the game so that ammo usage difference between semiauto and burstfire is important then presto, balance.

Another way is Feng Shui's balance, in that there is perfectly good reasons for switch to semiauto. When it's the coolest option to the players. Especially if you have Movie Magik Magazines™ that's all nice and balanced, in that you'll have a player pleasing mix of semiauto and burstfire because each is a viable option.

P.S. Offhand making Burst Fire a Feat certainly sounds wack. ;)  But such is the effect of trying to pound a square peg into a triangular hole....returning us to my previous stance of expecting poor results of trying to enact modern firearms in a D&D based system.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: Bagpuss on July 18, 2006, 10:44:58 AM
From the D20 Modern SRD
Quote
Autofire
If a ranged weapon has an automatic rate of fire, a character may set it on autofire. Autofire affects an area and everyone in it, not a specific creature. The character targets a 10-foot-by-10-foot area and makes an attack roll; the targeted area has an effective Defense of 10. (If the character does not have the Advanced Firearms Proficiency feat, he or she takes a –4 penalty on the attack roll.) If the attack succeeds, every creature within the affected area must make a Reflex save (DC 15) or take the weapon’s damage. Autofire shoots 10 bullets, and can only be used if the weapon has 10 bullets in it.


While I like the fact it represents the sort of spray and pray effect of targeting an area rather than an individual it does mean you can end up with a situation like I mentioned before.

Since the target area has a civilian in front of it, it counts as having cover, so it's Defense is 14, instead of 10. But if you make the roll no chance of the civilian being hit, and since the bullets don't travel beyond the 10ft by 10ft area no chance of hitting the baby in the pushchair an inch behind your intended target if you pick the right 10ft by 10ft area.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: blakkie on July 18, 2006, 11:15:07 AM
I wonder why they didn't make it a cone of roughly indefinate length, depending on weapon?  That would actually make a bit more sense.  You'd still have to have to add a tweak for people closer to the shooter providing cover to those further away and behind, something that D&D proper actually provides in some measure with arrow fire.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: FraserRonald on July 18, 2006, 12:21:23 PM
Brad Clark, the guy who tells me how things work in the real world and who actually uses weapons, hates the autofire and burst rules as well. His arguement was the same: "I learned it the same day I learned how to use an assault rifle." I figure it should be wrapped into the Advanced Firearm Proficiency. But, again, as others have mentioned, it's a balance thing. Force the firearm users to spend an extra feat, lower their chances to hit, don't make firearms too effective in-game versus hand2hand combatants.

It also bugs me that most low-level characters can only fire one round from a semi-automatic weapon in 6 seconds. In 6 seconds, people trained in firearms could put a lot of effective lead downrange. Doesn't take long to empty the magazine of a Beretta 92, and that's when one is actually hitting things with the bullets.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: blakkie on July 18, 2006, 11:29:41 PM
Quote from: FraserRonald
But, again, as others have mentioned, it's a balance thing. Force the firearm users to spend an extra feat, lower their chances to hit, don't make firearms too effective in-game versus hand2hand combatants.

That's probably the biggest non-realistic aspect in RPGs.  Typically bringing a knife to a gunfight is usually a fatal mistake, but far less so in games.

It is also probably the one place that the fewest people complain about favouring balancing of options over realism. Likely due partially due to ignorance, but I'm guessing mostly to do with liking the movie version where unarmed people take on swordwielders and knives go face-to-face with firearms regularly and are treated as roughly on par.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: FraserRonald on July 19, 2006, 12:42:22 AM
Quote from: blakkie
That's probably the biggest non-realistic aspect in RPGs.  Typically bringing a knife to a gunfight is usually a fatal mistake, but far less so in games.

It is also probably the one place that the fewest people complain about favouring balancing of options over realism. Likely due partially due to ignorance, but I'm guessing mostly to do with liking the movie version where unarmed people take on swordwielders and knives go face-to-face with firearms regularly and are treated as roughly on par.


That's all very true. And like you pointed out earlier, ammo consumption is a realistic and consistent balancing factor that affects the use of burst fire.

The beauty part is, in one's game, one can make the rules whatever the heck one wants. This one includes burst fire with advanced firearms proficiency.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: blakkie on July 19, 2006, 10:20:55 AM
Quote from: FraserRonald
The beauty part is, in one's game, one can make the rules whatever the heck one wants. This one includes burst fire with advanced firearms proficiency.

Old saw.  Problem being every you change things around you have to settle it all out. If you rip something appart bigtime then you end up effectively playtesting for a while, sometimes a long while. Which tends to bring rules confusion with it.

Because balance isn't just for the sake of itself. There is actually a motivation and goal behind it. Or should be.

Ya sure, you could even rewrite the whole ruleset. But then why the hell are you using it as a base to start with if it is that far out of wack from what you are looking for?
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: FraserRonald on July 20, 2006, 09:23:09 AM
Quote from: blakkie
Old saw.  Problem being every you change things around you have to settle it all out. If you rip something appart bigtime then you end up effectively playtesting for a while, sometimes a long while. Which tends to bring rules confusion with it.

Because balance isn't just for the sake of itself. There is actually a motivation and goal behind it. Or should be.

Ya sure, you could even rewrite the whole ruleset. But then why the hell are you using it as a base to start with if it is that far out of wack from what you are looking for?


Well, in this case, with it being a single feat, it didn't cause too many problems. House rules are good in that they can be added incrementally, and with each step comes plenty of playtesting. If it's a problem, it's simply ripped out.

It is true that if you rewrite the whole ruleset, you might as well buy a new system. That's not what I was suggesting.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: Cynosure on July 20, 2006, 01:07:59 PM
Quote from: Bagpuss
And also why does Burst Fire make it harder to hit someone, when the point of it is to make it more likely that you hit someone?

The primary purpose of burst fire is to put multiple rounds into a single target, thereby increasing the weapon's stopping power. But if the target is far away and if you find yourself having to take multiple, separate shots to hit that target because your aim wasn't spot-on with your first shot, then you are better off firing semi-auto than you are, burst. That's because it's easier and faster to re-adjust/fine-tune your aim between semi-auto shots than it is between bursts.

d20 Modern does nothing to reflect this, however.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: blakkie on July 20, 2006, 01:36:09 PM
@FraserRonald

No, you weren't suggesting rewriting the rules. That second paragraph doesn't belong in my post, so strike that sucker out. :bow:

Often in a well tuned system changing one piece tends to ripple out in a noticable, and occationally unexpected way. Playtesting implies that it might need further changes.

In this case with the ammuniton supply.  If that is the balancing factor you are going to count on for this change, and we assume that currently the system is balanced, then is the influence of ammunition supply going to need to be upped?  How to do that? And where will that change ripple too?

Of course knowing the system really, really well helps this a lot. Usually by playing with it for some time. But often I've see people read through a rules book once, or even played it for a while, and then say "well obviously this one thing has to change because of XYZ" and going ahead and doing that without realizing the ripple effect they are creating and it's far reaching implications.

I'm not saying that must be the case here, because I haven't even read the book/SRD. But that is something to watch for there.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: Cynosure on July 20, 2006, 02:38:01 PM
From studying the Ranged Weapons table in d20 Modern, it's obvious that the HK G3 7.62mm assault rifle (shouldn't that be battle rifle?) is the best of the "Longarms", for use in just about any combat situation one might encounter in a d20 Modern adventure. The HK G3 has the best range and damage among longarms, and it can fire semi- or fully-automatic. Only a player who puts style and roleplaying above combat potential/effectiveness would want to settle for anything less than a HK G3, for his character. Yet when it comes to longarms in real-life, a 7.62mm battle rifle is seldom the first choice among commandos, special forces, SWAT teams, etc.

If a d20 Modern adventure involved the player characters going into a labyrinth-like office complex, shouldn't they prefer using submachineguns  over assault rifles, and especially over battle rifles? If another adventure involved the player character going into a cramped sewer system or clearing out a Vietnam-like tunnel and bunker network, shouldn't they prefer using pistols or sawed-off shotguns over anything else? Yet the d20 Modern rules for firearms are not conducive for that sort of thing, since in d20 Modern combat it's all about range, damage, and rate of fire – and nothing else.

Not that I'm advocating complex rules involving recoil and weapon speed/size, here. But surely, we can use something a little more detailed than what d20 Modern is giving us.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: Cyclotron on July 20, 2006, 04:35:01 PM
Quote from: T-Willard
I've been thinking.

Why is Burst Fire its own feat?

If you've ever been trained on an assault rifle or other automatic weapon, you get training in burst fire (Which takes about 10 minutes) and most modern assault rifles have a built in burst setting.

So why wasn't the burst fire option just folded into the Advanced Firearms Profecency? You're already learning how to use automatic fire (which is pretty goddamn useless as written) with assault rifles, why not Burst Fire?

I'm rather fond of the way Spycraft 2.0 handles it...

Burst and Autofire are just ordinary attack actions.  Auto Fire is a full-round action on its own, and Burst Fire is a free action "trick" that you use to modify a normal attack.

For Burst, your recoil penalties are doubled (which amounts to nothing, if you're careful about your Str score and using both hands to shoot your gun), you use two additional bullets and the error range of your gun for this shot is temporarily increased by +1.  If you hit the target, you deal damage as normal.  If hit the target's defense by +5 or more, you deal two bullets worth of damage, and if you beat the defense by +10 or more, all three bullets hit and deal damage.

Autofire is similar, except that you get to decide the number of bullets in your volley and the penalties are a little bit heftier.  If you hit, one bullet hits, plus one for every +4 you exceed the target's Defense, up to the number of bullets in your volley.

A weapon with the gatling quality steps it up another notch...

Quote
Gatling (GAT): This machine gun uses multiple rotating barrels to produce a high rate of fire.  It may only be fired in Full Auto mode, regardless of character options and other effects that might permit attacks in Single-Shot or Burst mode.
 
When this weapon is used to take an Autofire action, each volley uses 25 shots instead of the standard 3 (and again, no character option or effect may reduce this amount). Each target loses his dodge bonus to Defense against this attack, and 1 additional shot hits the target for every 2 which the attack result exceeds the target's Defense, rather than the standard 4.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: blakkie on July 20, 2006, 05:06:59 PM
Cynosure, are the concealment of items such as weapons a factor in the D20M rules? Or is it rare to find D20M games where that carrying an weapon inconspicuously is concern?  Likewise do legality issues ever come up, as it is legal to own a registered handgun and you won't get hassled for walking around with one. Hello Texas!  But try walk around downdown Dallas with a G3 and someone is going to eventually want to talk to you. Perhaps via a bullhorn.

Or are D20M games usually military theatre stuff where you are a soilder and it is perfectly reasonable for you to be carrying the biggest mofo weapon you can lay your hands on, functional requirements aside.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: Cynosure on July 20, 2006, 05:18:28 PM
Quote from: blakkie
Cynosure, are the concealment of items such as weapons a factor in the D20M rules? Or is it rare to find D20M games where that carrying an weapon inconspicuously is concern?  Likewise do legality issues ever come up, as it is legal to own a registered handgun and you won't get hassled for walking around with one.

There are rules for legality and concealment of guns, in d20 Modern, which are affected (albeit to a minor, almost negligable extent) by what kind of gun you choose to carry/wield. But that is beside the point I was making, as those are factors determining whether or not you can acquire a particular gun, and whether or not you can bring it with you into a particular locale. The point I was making concerned the pro's and con's of the guns themselves, i.e. their performance and handiness in combat, in a variety of conditions and situations.

Besides, if you're playing in, say, a modern-day commandos or special forces campaign, or in an anarchstic near-future post-apocalpyse campaign, factors like legality and concealment aren't going to come into play often, if at at all.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: blakkie on July 20, 2006, 05:35:44 PM
Oh, I hear you about the lack of weapon functionality of the operating environment or, say, recoil during full auto not being factored into weapons. After all the carbine  and SMG classes of weapons were created specifically because of the confines of an urban battlefield, and because of the round that G3 uses it isn't going to be much use on full auto if your target is outside of spitting range.  But it'll sure screw up anyone that is inside spitting range. :)

I was just asking to see if they at least had some other factors involved.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: Cynosure on July 20, 2006, 05:54:24 PM
Quote from: blakkie
After all the carbine  and SMG classes of weapons were created specifically because of the confines of an urban battlefield, and because of the round that G3 uses it isn't going to be much use on full auto if your target is outside of spitting range.

Right. If, say, you are whipping around a corner or into a doorway, and in the adjoining room an enemy suddenly comes into view, a pistol or a submachinegun is a lot handier to have than an assault rifle or a battle rifle. But, again, the d20 Modern rules do nothing to represent those sorts of situations, which are actually quite common in urban battlefields.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: blakkie on July 20, 2006, 06:24:32 PM
Quote from: Cynosure
Right. If, say, you are whipping around a corner or into a doorway, and in the adjoining room an enemy suddenly comes into view, a pistol or a submachinegun is a lot handier to have than an assault rifle or a battle rifle. But, again, the d20 Modern rules do nothing to represent those sorts of situations, which are actually quite common in urban battlefields.

Described like that suddenly I had a flashback to the initiative modifier, or whatever it was called, for weapons in AD&D. And then an icy shiver ran up my spine. A baaaaad shiver. :imsorry:

It can probably be handled cleaner than that was. But still, the memories haunt...
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: Cynosure on July 20, 2006, 06:38:32 PM
Quote from: blakkie
Described like that suddenly I had a flashback to the initiative modifier, or whatever it was called, for weapons in AD&D. And then an icy shiver ran up my spine. A baaaaad shiver. :imsorry:

It can probably be handled cleaner than that was. But still, the memories haunt...

Well, given the cyclic way combat rounds work in d20, speed factors for guns (or for any weapons, for that matter) wouldn't jibe as a modifier for determining initiative. But each gun should at least have a "snap shot" modifier, which applies to your attack rolls when firing during a maneuver such as I described.

9mm pistol: -0
.44 magnum pistol: -1
9mm submachinegun: -2
5.56mm assault rifle (carbine or bullpup version): -3
5.56mm assault rifle (full version): -4
7.62mm battle rifle: -5
7.62mm sniper rifle: -6
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: Bagpuss on July 21, 2006, 04:32:25 AM
I just give a flat -4 to hit for using a longarm in a confined area, which is basically any internal space other than a warehouse, you can offset this penalty by taking a move action to aim. SMG, most bullpups and carbines don't have this modifier. This basically means you can move and fire with shorter weapons, but can't move and fire with longarms without having a penalty.

I allow pistols to be used in melee without provoking Attacks of Opportunity. Attacks with SMGs, bullpups and carbines in melee are at -2 to hit and longarms at -4 (these penalties can't be offset), and produce an AoO.

That generally incourages people to switch to lighter weapons when moving inside a building.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: Hastur T. Fannon on July 21, 2006, 05:33:06 AM
I agree with this, except

Quote from: Bagpuss
I allow pistols to be used in melee without provoking Attacks of Opportunity.


What about during grappling?
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: Bagpuss on July 21, 2006, 07:59:37 AM
Opposed grapple role the winner gets to use it, no matter who is holding it. I think that reflects the movie genre.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: FraserRonald on July 21, 2006, 09:07:36 AM
Quote from: blakkie
@FraserRonald

No, you weren't suggesting rewriting the rules. That second paragraph doesn't belong in my post, so strike that sucker out. :bow:


I will consider it duly struck.

Quote from: blakkie

Often in a well tuned system changing one piece tends to ripple out in a noticable, and occationally unexpected way. Playtesting implies that it might need further changes.


Very true, and why careful, incremental changes to any system, followed by rigorous playtesting is important. Even when playtesting suggests there may be an issue with anothe rule or section of the system, it's important to analyze and understand how and why the change is impacting that rule/section before making further changes.

If one has a good group with a good grasp of the system, it's easier to make changes on the fly. Removing changes and re-setting to normal with such a group--in my experience--is quite easy. Also, such a group is able to give better feedback and offer good ideas when there is something that needs changing.

Quote from: blakkie

In this case with the ammuniton supply.  If that is the balancing factor you are going to count on for this change, and we assume that currently the system is balanced, then is the influence of ammunition supply going to need to be upped?  How to do that? And where will that change ripple too?


When using encumbrance rules, and enforcing the recording of ammunition usage, ammunition in d20 is already an important factor in weapon balance. It's also important to remember the time factor in changing magazines.

Quote from: blakkie

Of course knowing the system really, really well helps this a lot. Usually by playing with it for some time. But often I've see people read through a rules book once, or even played it for a while, and then say "well obviously this one thing has to change because of XYZ" and going ahead and doing that without realizing the ripple effect they are creating and it's far reaching implications.


And after doing so, watching their game go kla-blooie, and wonder what went wrong. Yeah, tinkering with rules without understanding them is like tinkering with an engine or electronic device without understanding it. Don't expect it to do what it did before one started one's tinkering.

Quote from: blakkie

I'm not saying that must be the case here, because I haven't even read the book/SRD. But that is something to watch for there.


It's a good warning, and something to remember, whenever trying to "fix" a system.

Cheers.
Title: [d20 Modern Feats] Burst Fire
Post by: Cynosure on July 21, 2006, 12:13:53 PM
Quote from: Bagpuss
I just give a flat -4 to hit for using a longarm in a confined area, which is basically any internal space other than a warehouse, you can offset this penalty by taking a move action to aim. SMG, most bullpups and carbines don't have this modifier. This basically means you can move and fire with shorter weapons, but can't move and fire with longarms without having a penalty.

I allow pistols to be used in melee without provoking Attacks of Opportunity. Attacks with SMGs, bullpups and carbines in melee are at -2 to hit and longarms at -4 (these penalties can't be offset), and produce an AoO.

That is a good compromise. It gives at least a nod toward realism, thereby making pistols and submachineguns a more viable option.