Thanks for the suggestions.  

I've been looking at some very cool German Boardgames, and was inspired to write up a new approach.  I'm really excited about this idea now -- I think I've finally got it figured out for my game!

:wizard:

Quote from: RPGPunditWell, um, I'm sure that its an "excellent game system", given that I LOVED that system back when it was called AD&D 1st edition.

RPGPundit

Hackmaster is much more than that, although people that haven't read or played it rarely realize it, and that's a common misconception amongst the uneducated. It's part 1e, part 2e, part rolemaster (a small part), and part brand new. While it would be easy to pick up and convert pretty much anything from 1e or 2e (or even OD&D) there are many great rules added on and lots and lots of rules that were changed.

The skill system is vastly superior to anything O/AD&D ever did. The honor rules are great, and the handling of alignment is too.

Quote from: James McMurrayHackmaster is much more than that, although people that haven't read or played it rarely realize it, and that's a common misconception amongst the uneducated. It's part 1e, part 2e, part rolemaster (a small part), and part brand new. While it would be easy to pick up and convert pretty much anything from 1e or 2e (or even OD&D) there are many great rules added on and lots and lots of rules that were changed.

The skill system is vastly superior to anything O/AD&D ever did. The honor rules are great, and the handling of alignment is too.

Dude, Hackmaster is essentially AD&D 1st Ed. turned up to 11, with house rules.  A shitload of houserules, granted, some silly and some serious; but that's no different to what Arduin was, or what so many other early fantasy RPGs were, and HM is much more blatant about it at that.  Some of these house rules are, I agree, very very clever.
Some of them are not so much, and I'd simply ignore them if  I ever ran Hackmaster.

But the game is, at its core, AD&D 1e; denying that is just a denial of reality.  Its a great Homage to not only AD&D1e, but to all the early RPG gaming experience, with a tongue-in-cheek parody style.

And remember that AD&D 1e was basically D&D with a bunch of house rules, too.

RPGPundit

How many times have you read the PHB and GMG? How many times have you played it? GMed it?

Well, I like competitive RPGs are fun. The stickler in their design is the GM and his role. Make him a referee for the players and it's hard to make him a player. Make him competitive and you somehowhave to find a way to limit the GM mechanically. Which is kind of hard to do.

You can completely get rid of the GM, which is a pretty neat, but against requires some direction and mechanic to compensate for the late of GM.

You don't need mechanical limits if you have honorable ones. That may not be an option for all groups of course.

Capes was recently pointed out to me as a GMless game. The person who posted it seemed to really like it, although the brief bit I read about it didn't sound like my cup of RPG.

Quote from: James McMurrayHow many times have you read the PHB and GMG? How many times have you played it? GMed it?

Hackmaster? I've read both of those books over a couple of times in their entirety.  I've never actually had the chance to run it, nor have I looked at any of the supplements.

But I think that looking at the core of what the game is about, is enough for me to feel qualified to comment on it.

RPGPundit

Well, qualified to comment perhaps. But capable of making sensical statements? that's yet to be seen.

You can call it 1st edition with house rules, but the sheer number of house rules required to morph 1e into HM is staggering. Might as well say that SR3 is SR1 with house rules.

You can also try and say that it isn't used as a serious game, but you'd be wrong. I'm sure that won't stop you.

Quote from: James McMurrayWell, qualified to comment perhaps. But capable of making sensical statements? that's yet to be seen.

You can call it 1st edition with house rules, but the sheer number of house rules required to morph 1e into HM is staggering. Might as well say that SR3 is SR1 with house rules.

You can also try and say that it isn't used as a serious game, but you'd be wrong. I'm sure that won't stop you.

Well, that certainly didn't take long... so much for "keeping your claws out of my ass".

You're the one who's wrong. HM is a parody, IT SAYS SO IN FUCKING p.2 OF THE GM's GUIDE.
Can it be PLAYED seriously? Of course.  But the game itself is designed and defined as a parody, and most of the rules that weren't from 1st ed. AD&D (with a few notable exceptions like Honour) were designed for the express purpose of parodying the perceptions people like you have of 1st ed. AD&D.

Now let me ask you something, since you were so kind to throw around the insinuation that I hadn't read HM:  Have you ever fucking read the 1st Ed. PHB and DMG? Because the statements you're making above about how different the former is from Hackmaster would seem to tell me that you must not have, or you must have a very bad memory; since other than some completely tacked on house rules, the games are FUCKING IDENTICAL.

If I ignore all the stupid humourous rules about how players can't read the DMG and must blindly obey the rules and sign the GMing contract and all the other stuff that comes straight from KoDT, I'm playing AD&D. With some extra house-rules, but its AD&D, 100%, no mistaking it for anything else.  Hell, even "honour", the advancement system, and the skill systems; innovative as they are, fit right into AD&D's style without making it feel like you're playing anything else.

I mean, fuck's sake, there's a REASON why these guys had to make a contract with Wizards.

Look, I figure you felt insulted because you thought I was slamming HM (I wasn't), or slamming your serious HM game (again, I wasn't, nor was I saying you can't play HM); plus you had the Beta Male thing going there as fucking usual, but making an argument you can't possibly win isn't a good idea.

And starting up this shit of poking at me at every turn is really going to be counterproductive for you.

RPGPundit

Quote from: RPGPunditall the stupid humourous rules about how players can't read the DMG

I haven't read Hackmaster, but the 1st Ed. PHB does tell players not to read the DMG.

I thought the Hackmaster deal was reached after WotC published all the KotDT comics as part of the Dragon CD-ROM, and the settlement they reached was KotDT were allowed to have the 1st Ed. Rules.  Is that right?

QuoteWell, that certainly didn't take long... so much for "keeping your claws out of my ass".

Uh-huh. You stepped in my kitty litter. Besides, the last time I checked pointing out that someone is wrong wasn't a personal attack. YMMV.

QuoteCan it be PLAYED seriously? Of course. But the game itself is designed and defined as a parody, and most of the rules that weren't from 1st ed. AD&D (with a few notable exceptions like Honour) were designed for the express purpose of parodying the perceptions people like you have of 1st ed. AD&D.

Uhhh... dude... Read what I wrote. We're saying the same thing here, at least about whether it can be played seriously or not.

I would be interested to know what "people like me"'s "perceptions of 1st ed. AD&D" are.

QuoteHave you ever fucking read the 1st Ed. PHB and DMG? Because the statements you're making above about how different the former is from Hackmaster would seem to tell me that you must not have, or you must have a very bad memory; since other than some completely tacked on house rules, the games are FUCKING IDENTICAL.

LOL! Yeah. I've read them. Played them for years, but if you actually read what other people posted on your boards you'd know that already. I've certainly used them enough to know that "FUCKING IDENTICAL" apparently doesn't mean to you what it means to the rest of the world. Or perhaps your definition of "some" is different. Different classes, different races, different skill system, lots of different spells, different character creation system, different kits / package rules, different multi-classing rules, add-ons like critical hits, quirks and takents, and Honor rules vastly different than 1e's honor rules.

Need I continue, or are you done trying to use terms like "fucking identical"? LOL

QuoteWith some extra house-rules

There's that word "some" again. LOL

Look, I'm not doubting it's based on 1st edition AD&D, with some second edition and rolemaster thrown in. But the idea that "apart from some house rules" they're the same game is ludicrous unless you define "some" to mean "a large number."

QuoteAnd starting up this shit of poking at me at every turn is really going to be counterproductive for you.

What the hell? Have you been reading these boards? I'm posting all over the place. You made a statement and I contradicted it. That's not "poking at you at every turn," it's trying to engage in a "fucking conversation" to use your lingo. In fact, I first mentioned Hackmaster in the competitive play thread, whereupon you leapt on the and I said that yes, it is a parody but is also a great system and lots of people use it for serious games. Next thing we know there's an entire thread devoted to telling Hackmaster players that their game is nothing but a joke.

Get your timelines straight.

Quote from: StuartI thought the Hackmaster deal was reached after WotC published all the KotDT comics as part of the Dragon CD-ROM, and the settlement they reached was KotDT were allowed to have the 1st Ed. Rules. Is that right?

Yep. HM is a mish-mash of 1e, 2e, new stuff (quite a bit of that), and some homages to other game systems like Rolemaster.

Any two games where I could perfectly play an entire fucking campaign using the PHB from one, and the GM's Guide from the other system is basically the same game.

I could easily do this with Hackmaster and AD&D 1st Edition.

RPGPundit

How do you handle all the new stuff in HM when using the 1E DMG? Do you throw those rules out the window?

Quote from: RPGPunditI could easily do this with Hackmaster and AD&D 1st Edition.

While I agree with you, that specific comparison isn't fair. I could run lots of games with some kind of PHB and the AD&D 1 DMG, probably better than with the original master's guide.

If you're really into dice-fudging, illusionism, railroading, etc -- you could play just about any game without any books at all.