Sometimes crunch is good, sometimes it just gets in the way and slows things down.

What do you think examples of each are and what differentiates them?

For me a couple of examples...

Clunky - Rolemaster character creation, Exalted Charms, Unknown Armies multiple dice interpretations.

Chunky - Rolemaster critical hits, Traveller character creation, Silhouette vehicle creation, Blue Planet initiative.

Definitely add Rolemasters Critical Hits charts to clunky.  It's retarded.  I mean hell roll on this chart, which leads you to roll on another chart screw that noise.  It's just crap.  Utterly craptastical.  Infact pretty much put all of Rolemaster into  clunky from the way you level up by rolling checks vs the skills you've used to the endless tables for character generation.  

Chunky - The Hero System.

Clunky - The Hero System's combat system in no possible way should a combat be broken down into 12 phases each broken into 2 1/2 phases with then a 13th phase post round wrap up.

Clunky: Hackmaster Character Creation

Chunky: Pretty much everything else in hackmaster

Clunky: Rules I don't care for.

Chunky: Rules I think are neat.

Should we just cut to the chase and list out favorite/most hated games?

Quote from: MaddmanClunky: Rules I don't care for.

Chunky: Rules I think are neat.

Should we just cut to the chase and list out favorite/most hated games?

No, because I think there's more to it than that.  Hence the examples people have given involving seperate sections within the same games.

Clunky is something complex that gets in the way.
Chunky is something that can be complex or slow but it still satisfying.

Quote from: GRIMNo, because I think there's more to it than that.  Hence the examples people have given involving seperate sections within the same games.

Clunky is something complex that gets in the way.
Chunky is something that can be complex or slow but it still satisfying.

Yes, but the difference between them is purely a matter of taste.  I would call neither Exalted's Charms nor UA's dice methods clunky.  I would call Exalted's large dice pools such, but that's my taste.  Some people love rolling big handfulls of dice.

Classic Traveller:
Clunky - Personal Combat (LBB3), High Guard
Chunky - Chargen (basic and advanced), Starship Combat, World Generation (LBB3 and 6!)

Rolemaster 2ed:
Clunky - Chargen, Levelling, RMC2 skill system, Moving Maneuver Table
Chunky - Attack and Crit Tables, Magic

White Wolf (Aeonoverse iteration):
Clunky - Dice Pools
Chunky - Chargen

1e AD&D:
Clunky - The stuff everyone chucked (btb initiative or %ile unarmed combat, frex!), alignment
Chunky - Weapon vs. AC table (I really like it!), differing XP progressions

All subjective, but it's an interesting way to look at rule systems.  Good thread.

Quote from: kryyst.

Clunky - The Hero System's combat system in no possible way should a combat be broken down into 12 phases each broken into 2 1/2 phases with then a 13th phase post round wrap up.

You should check out Pheonix command if you can find it. Combat is broken down into either 1/4 or 1/8th second phases, with each character having only certain phases to act in, and each action taking so many phases...

Talk about granularity

Quote from: MaddmanYes, but the difference between them is purely a matter of taste.  I would call neither Exalted's Charms nor UA's dice methods clunky.  I would call Exalted's large dice pools such, but that's my taste.  Some people love rolling big handfulls of dice.

That's kinda the point of the thread, to explore which rules people feel are clunky and chunky. If you've got a different opinion from someone else then by all means expound upon why you feel the way you do. Some of us (such as those who have heard of Exalted but never played it) would love to hear about it from different viewpoints.

Quote from: James McMurrayThat's kinda the point of the thread, to explore which rules people feel are clunky and chunky. If you've got a different opinion from someone else then by all means expound upon why you feel the way you do. Some of us (such as those who have heard of Exalted but never played it) would love to hear about it from different viewpoints.

Okay, fair enough.  Here's why I think Exalted's charms work for the game.  There's a couple of different reasons.  For those that have never played, charms are sort of halfway between a spell and a feat.  They are moves or abilities yet they are clearly magical in nature, being fueled by Essence, the game's mana resource.  The game has its abilities, or skills, split up into 25 different areas.  Each skill has a tree of charms that go along with it.  Each one suppliments a given skill in some way.

This lets the game have whatever focus you want.  If you're a combat monkey, then you can load up on Golden Essence Block, which allows you to parry any attack, or Solar Counterattack, that gives you a free attack when someone strikes at you.  Or if you're a social monkey you can get cool charms that will let you change the belief systems of the society you are in or turn someone into a social pariah.  A stealth expert can open locks with a mere touch, or disappear from sight completely.

They also work in combat as a balancing factor against each other.  Rather than the wargaming roots of most RPGs, Exalted takes its cues from CCGs.  Now you don't have actual cards, but each ability counters and is countered by a different ability.  This makes for some interesting, tactical gameplay, though different than in games such as D&D.  Its not so much about getting the right position and layout of the battlefield but rather what move you're going to use and if your opponent will counter it.

And I do have to mention stunting, as its an essential part of what makes it all work.  Stunts are simply 'cool stuff' that you do.  Describe your action in an interesting or exciting way and you get a one to three dice bonus on your action.  But the trick is (and I didn't realize this until I saw it in play) that the extra dice is not the real reward.  You also get 2-6 motes of essence back with each stunt.

What this means is that in a big battle the Exalted enemies will try to wear each others defenses down.  Defense is stronger than offense, so it pays to get your defenses up.  Once everyone runs out of motes then it gets real exciting because they can't power those defenses anymore.  Each side will start stunting their asses off, trying to get enough motes to pull off a finishing move or be able to block the one their opponent is preparing.  The end result is that it makes one on one or small group fights among powerful opponents very exciting.

Now if it could do this without all the counting successes I'd be in hog heaven...

Sounds cool. Try using dice with the success numbers highlighted. You can count the successes without even caring which actual numbers came up. One of the Shadowrun players I know of (blakkie I think) actually went so far as to make his own dice. That is probably more than most people would like to do though.

This assumes that Exalted has a fixe target number.

Quote from: James McMurrayThis assumes that Exalted has a fixed target number.

It does and that idea is now mine, all mine!  

Quote from: James McMurraySounds cool. Try using dice with the success numbers highlighted. You can count the successes without even caring which actual numbers came up. One of the Shadowrun players I know of (blakkie I think) actually went so far as to make his own dice. That is probably more than most people would like to do though.

This assumes that Exalted has a fixe target number.

I've thought about doing that - Exalted does indeed have a fixed TN.  You'd need several different colors really though - 7 or higher is a success, 0 is two successes, and if there are no successes and any 1s then it's a critical failure.  So maybe gold on the 0, silver on 7-9, and black on the 0?

Like I said in another thread I'd convert the whole thing to unisystem, which has success levels on a single die, except I'm lazy and afraid of screwing something up.