Despite my own apatheistic Judaism, I've become fascinated by the devout-Christian market for various products. It seems less a subculture than a parallel culture. Something usually invisible from the mainstream, but incredibly popular and influential. See the popularity of the Tim Lahaye books, etc.
Now I know that there have been efforts to create a Christian RPG. Dragonraid most famously comes to mind. But I haven't heard them as being very successful, since they seemed to be designed as "D&D, but without the bad occult stuff that turns children to Satan". A rehashing of standard RPG tropes with that didactic, evangelical tone that you see in a lot of things produced for that market. I've been theorizing on how to make a roleplaying game whose design was meant to explore devout Christian themes.
Some design possibilites:
* A Tim Lahaye-style post-apocalyptic "Rapture" rpg has a certain goofy appeal. However, if you're not into his brand of millenarinism it's of limited use. What would be cool, IMO, is a game set in that most quintessential of Christian eras: the first couple of centuries AD, when the Church was struggling to survive. What better adventuring setting than the Mediterreanen, Levant, and Northern Europe in that time period, as RPGPundit can attest? You have your oppressive authority who can provide foils for the PC's, a conspiratorial underground organization for them to get "missions" from, your vast world to explore, and other chunky goodness.
* A mechanic to emphasize how *hard* it was to be a good Christian at that time. I'd avoid establishing a rule that "no Christian would be violent, therefore fighting is forbidden." Making moral choices via a Virtues/Vices mechanic or similar should be very important--to emphasize that "turning the other cheek" meant considerable sacrifice and faith.
* No "magical faith". Earning Faith Points or whatever to power things like healing, divine intervention, etc. would be risking the charge that the RPG is all about the occult under Biblical window dressing. Faith would be akin to willpower or very rare cases of miracles...and those not under the control of the player to define.
Personally, I think there's very little entertainment value in the kind of fanatical dementia of the U.S. Evangelical Christian crowd.
I mean, you've heard of the Left-Behind-based video game? The third-person shooter where you go around murdering employees of the UN and buddhists because they serve the antichrist?
You want to know why the US is screwed, there's your answer: its because these people are the Taliban, and the rest of America is in denial trying to claim that they can be reasoned with: The only real difference is that they don't have the power to have their way yet. When they will, do you really think they won't be getting rid of Buddhists and UN-employees for real? I mean, shit, look at what they're teaching their kids...
So frankly, I'd have as much interest in doing an RPG about that as I would in doing an RPG made by an Al-Qaeda member about the glories of being a suicide bomber.
Of course, some Swine theorist somewhere is going to think that both of those are immensely fun ideas for RPG goodness. :duh:
I think you COULD do a lot of good RPGs that paint Christianity in a positive light, or that are at least more interesting than the "left-behind-shoot-the-UN" scenario. For a start, you could go with the whole Early Christianity business, where the PCs would be trying to spread a pacifistic love-based ideology (or a gnostic ideology of wisdom) in a relatively brutal Roman world that suspects them of incest and cannibalism. The opportunity to detail the early christian factions, their increasingly complex relationship with the Jews (from their emergence as a jewish side-cult, to their strained connection with Judaism during the Jewish uprising, to their eventually falling-out with Judaism at the end of the first century), and do some interesting things regarding the mechanics of attempted conversion if that was your deal.
You could of course make it with, or without a supernatural twist.
There'd be other possible eras too: the Crusades, the Reformation, Jesuits in South America or China, stuff like that.
RPGPundit
I applaud you for seeking out an untapped market and brainstorming a way to get a piece of it. It's good to see a design forum that treats games as products to be marketed, instead of 'art for art's sake'.
But I think that your thinly veiled contempt for your target audience might hamper your attempt to appeal to them.
I'm actually studying in seminary at the moment, and I've had a couple of games put out there. Eldritch Ass Kicking is my first printed game, distributed by Key20 Publishing (now Key20 Direct). I did work on the recent Noumenon RPG from Abstract Nova. I also have a couple of products on RPGNow - I'm just an indie publisher really, but I'm a Christian... licensed minister at the moment.
There is a lot of rich possibility in using the Bible as a background for RPGs, but I think there are some examples of that out there... like Green Ronin's Testament D20. I think a small press company, Visionary Entertainment, had something out for a while, though I don't know if they are still around. Dragonraid sort of has notoriety, but it does well because it has specific design goals (in a nutshell - get kids to memorize bible verses through a game). Multiverser was written by M.J. Young, a great theologian. There are other ones out there - mostly small press or free (like Claymore and Seth Ben-Ezra's work).
Is there a market for it? Not really. The big Christian publisher of games is Cactus Games, and they do well because, first and foremost, they design rockin' games. They have never done a Christian rpg - collectible card games and board games are their style. (One of their popular ones is Settlers of Canaan, a Christian remake of Settlers of Catan.)
In reality, Christian gamers play the same stuff you play - games where there is good and evil and people have to make tough moral decisions. Really, it's a lot like life perhaps. I like running and designing games that are just simply fun, that make you laugh. I mean, a staple of Jesus' ministry was to get people around a table and eat and talk. (Maybe he was a gamer?) But I'm also interested in bringing in larger themes into my games, some of which parallel biblical themes... like exodus, exile, a prophet to a hard-necked people, compassion to your enemies, strangers in a strange land, being counter-cultural, fighting the man, standing with the poor, loving the unloved... Any of these themes could make an awesome backdrop for a roleplaying game.
So yeah, the bible and Christian spiritual tradition has much that could be used as inspiration or support for a game -- but why does the game have to be... Christian persay?
I don't know about Christian RPG design, but I could see running Christian allegories and fables in diverse genres.
I mean, a campaign set on a penal colony in the midst of a religious awakening - but I don't think that's what you are talking about.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: MysticAgesIs there a market for it? Not really. The big Christian publisher of games is Cactus Games, and they do well because, first and foremost, they design rockin' games. They have never done a Christian rpg - collectible card games and board games are their style. (One of their popular ones is Settlers of Canaan, a Christian remake of Settlers of Catan.)
Do you get instructed by God to kill every man woman and child in Canaan, like the Israelites were in the Bible? Do you get punished by God for not doing it, again like what happened to the Israelites in the Bible? That's some crazy shit right there...
QuoteIn reality, Christian gamers play the same stuff you play - games where there is good and evil and people have to make tough moral decisions. Really, it's a lot like life perhaps.
I would imagine its certainly like music, anyways. Most of the faithful and yet sane christians I know express a dislike for "christian rock" and that sort of stuff, and really dig bands like U2 or Bob Dylan or Johnny Cash, who often have religious/christian themes while still being about the music, not about preaching to the choir with a giant sledgehammer.
And I'm not talking about lukewarm Anglicans or something like that; one guy I knew was a fucking Plymouth Bretheren, and he really dug Dylan and Johnny Cash. Played RPGs too.
QuoteI like running and designing games that are just simply fun, that make you laugh. I mean, a staple of Jesus' ministry was to get people around a table and eat and talk. (Maybe he was a gamer?) But I'm also interested in bringing in larger themes into my games, some of which parallel biblical themes... like exodus, exile, a prophet to a hard-necked people, compassion to your enemies, strangers in a strange land, being counter-cultural, fighting the man, standing with the poor, loving the unloved... Any of these themes could make an awesome backdrop for a roleplaying game.
So yeah, the bible and Christian spiritual tradition has much that could be used as inspiration or support for a game -- but why does the game have to be... Christian persay?
At least, why does it have to be in-your-face-US-style-Pat-Robertson christian?
RPGPundit
Quote from: David RI don't know about Christian RPG design, but I could see running Christian allegories and fables in diverse genres.
I mean, a campaign set on a penal colony in the midst of a religious awakening - but I don't think that's what you are talking about.
Regards,
David R
The deeper "theme" of my last Traveller campaign was basically a Sufi Muslim allegory.
My current Roman Immortals campaign has a powerful dosage of Zoroastrian, Gnostic Christian, and Mithraist themes. Im also trying to present a varied and thurough detailing of the origins of Christianity (my personal historian's take on it, anyways) as part of the storyline of the campaign.
Hell, Jong's character was Joseph of Arimathea!
RPGPundit
See... I want to do something that's sort of the anti-'Left Behind'.
A post rapture world with heroic atheists standing up to the calamities and trying to drive the angels and the faithful off the earth and eliminate god.
Quote from: GRIMSee... I want to do something that's sort of the anti-'Left Behind'.
A post rapture world with heroic atheists standing up to the calamities and trying to drive the angels and the faithful off the earth and eliminate god.
hmm.. a radically politicized anti-christian RPG would probably appeal to me about as little as a radically politicized pro-christian RPG.
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPundithmm.. a radically politicized anti-christian RPG would probably appeal to me about as little as a radically politicized pro-christian RPG.
RPGPundit
I like a bit of politics and statement in my gaming, even if I don't agree with the point being made it makes for more interest, same way it does in fiction. Plus, doing one's part to counter the tide of evangelical nonsense is appealing.
Quote from: RPGPunditThe deeper "theme" of my last Traveller campaign was basically a Sufi Muslim allegory.
My current Roman Immortals campaign has a powerful dosage of Zoroastrian, Gnostic Christian, and Mithraist themes. Im also trying to present a varied and thurough detailing of the origins of Christianity (my personal historian's take on it, anyways) as part of the storyline of the campaign.
Hell, Jong's character was Joseph of Arimathea!
RPGPundit
Yup. Any religion can be fodder for deeper themes in games. I was talking about Christianity, because that was what the OP seemed to be interested in.
But you know all said and done, I would really like to see a game based on a more historically accurate version of any religion - or a game set in any genre with a heavy dose of real world religion thrown in the mix.
Regards,
David R
Quote from: GRIMI like a bit of politics and statement in my gaming, even if I don't agree with the point being made it makes for more interest, same way it does in fiction. Plus, doing one's part to counter the tide of evangelical nonsense is appealing.
The thing is, partisan politics/ideology is extremely shallow and unidimensional. I like issues and themes in my RPGs, but I like them three-dimensional.
RPGPundit
What does it mean to be Christian?
Does it mean worshipping Christ specifically or worshipping his teachings and ideals?
There's a big difference when it comes to how I can imagine designing an RPG setting.
I can imagine a very Christian setting in which Christ is never mentioned. I can also imagine one based on the current "conservative Christian" viewpoint expressed in my own country where his name is cited constantly but his ideals are nowhere to be found.
Quote from: RPGPunditThe thing is, partisan politics/ideology is extremely shallow and unidimensional. I like issues and themes in my RPGs, but I like them three-dimensional.
RPGPundit
So you leave the true nature of the revelation a question.
Quote from: YamoI can imagine a very Christian setting in which Christ is never mentioned.
CS Lewis's Narnia, Tolkien's Middle Earth...
One game/sourcebook that hasn't been brought up yet is the Inquisition sourcebook for the oWoD. Some fantastic stuff it there that would fit the ideas mentioned in the OP
But I agree with MysticAges and the Pundit. A "Christian RPG" would be bad for the same reason that "Christian" "music" is almost universally dreadful. One-dimensional and if the writers/musicians could cut it in the "real world" they wouldn't need to confine themselves to the ghetto
I'd propose that there's already quite a few Christian thematic RPGs. Now, my views on Christianity make me swine to the modern-day-American-Christian version of RPGPundit, whoever that might be. As a person who took the themes and good parts of Christianity and carried them on past whatever this bizarre thing the American church has become, what I believe is not mainstream.
But, look at Sorcerer, for example, seriously. It's a pretty stark portrayal of man's lust for power, and the temptation to damn one's self for it. The concepts of temptation and damnation are fundamental to Christianity.
To toot my own horn, my last game, The Princes' Kingdom (http://www.crngames.com/the_princes_kingdom), is all about Christianity. You play young princes in service to their father, the King of all the world they know. You travel throughout his kingdom and find out how people actually live and help them with their problems, as the King can't go out and see every person. There's a pretty strong anti-war kick to go along with that. This game came from a lot of places, but my own meditations on Christianity were a big part of it.
Both of those were thematic games, which I think are easier to do with Christian themes than adventure games. By their nature, adventure games aren't really as much for transmitting themes as they are for straight-up fun! "The Way," an RPG put out by the Church of Sweden, which is basic D&D, basically, but with adventures that sneak-attack you by asking moral questions at the end, like "that guy in the road attacked by bandits who begged you to put him out of his misery - was that ok?" is the closest thing I know. (That's a real example from the game, and it highlights the difference between Swedish Christianity and American Christianity, to be sure.)
Like the Pundit, I want to see more games set from 0-300 AD. That era is ripe for adventure or thematic games.
I'm a Christian, and I enjoy the games Cactus Games puts out--they're fun, and they don't try to hit you over the head with anything. To be honest, I like being the head with Christian themes about as much as I do being hit with the pinko feminist neo-hippie crap of Blue Rose.
Actually, I think it would be interesting to see someone do an RPG or game about the early years of the church. A truly challenging time to be a Christian, set against a backdrop that will be at least moderately familiar to anyone with an interest in history. But I think part of the problem is that the gaming hobby, as someone noted in another thread, (http://www.therpgsite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1627&page=2) is by and large a hobby that attracts people "deviant" (his word, not mine) to mainstream society, which, as the major religion of North America, Christianity is a part of like it or not. So any Christian RPG out there is going to get the dogpile from the get-go, I imagine. Hell, people are still bitching about Dragonraid and Multiverser after all this time. If one really wants to go about it, the way to go with a Christian game is subtlety--not as in subliminal brainwashing values, but in portraying the basic (sometimes ignored) tenets of the religion in a light that makes them inspirational to others.
(BTW, Pundit, not to derail the thread, but killing civilians in the Left Behind shooter affects you negatively (in fact, you chances in the game improve when you recruit them, not slaughter them wantonly, which is considered a bad thing), the UN isn't evil in the game in and of itself, but has been changed into the fascist Global Community through the aims of the AntiChrist (a pretty good excuse), and your true enemy is considered demons and the armies of the AntiChrist, I'm told. Interesting article on it here (http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/left-behind-eternal-forces/700684p1.html)).
Quote from: Clinton R. NixonLike the Pundit, I want to see more games set from 0-300 AD. That era is ripe for adventure or thematic games.
I agree.
I forgot one real intriguing game, a 24 hour rpg, called Last Supper. You can download it on the 24 hour rpg site, I think - but it's all about Jesus' teachings when he institutes the Lord's Supper in his final hours. And, it's essentially about theology and dogma - which dogma is Jesus going to institute that will carry on in the church... and which can the disciples influence? I really dug the concept, although I'm going off the top of my head.
And Clinton, I'd love to check out your last game -- where is it?
I am/was writing a Wushu game called Liberators, based loosely off the ideas of liberation theology. Still, it was intended to be fun and action-packed. Think thugs turned Christian spiritual warriors, battling demons with kung fu, bullets, and knives. Demons latch onto folks and bring about the evils of the world - addiction, sexual predators, greed, violence, hate, oppression, poverty, etc.. So, as a bad ass spiritual warrior, you got to slay these demons, but you also get a chance to make some sort of difference in your community. Both are ways to fight back against the evil. The easier one to do is to pull out your gun.. but it might have consequences, especially because the demons love to get innocent bystanders in the way...
I should finish that someday. But school started this week.
Other ideas - an rpg where the players are Desert Fathers or where the heroes are pilgrims going to see the Desert Fathers, a game about traveling evangelists/missionaries trained by Paul to keep the churches staying strong amidst the Roman culture, a game about Christians struggling to stay alive and keep the faith amidst persecution in Rome, a game about the lesser known Disciples who traveled east and south to spread the gospel, a game where you form a Christian sect somewhere around Jerusalem and battle competing theological concepts (like Gnosticism) as they come about... I could do more, but I won't. :)
Quote from: MysticAgesAnd Clinton, I'd love to check out your last game -- where is it?
It's at http://www.crngames.com/the_princes_kingdom (http://www.crngames.com/the_princes_kingdom).
Quote from: MysticAges... a game about the lesser known Disciples who traveled east and south to spread the gospel, a game where you form a Christian sect somewhere around Jerusalem and battle competing theological concepts (like Gnosticism) as they come about...
Both of these sound fantastic. I've had a long-standing wish to write a game set in the 1st century where you all play people who had a passing encounter with Jesus, and all are believers, but may have very different opinions on his message.
Quote from: Clinton R. NixonIt's at http://www.crngames.com/the_princes_kingdom (http://www.crngames.com/the_princes_kingdom).
Both of these sound fantastic. I've had a long-standing wish to write a game set in the 1st century where you all play people who had a passing encounter with Jesus, and all are believers, but may have very different opinions on his message.
See, and it's games like this I think the hobby has lacked until now. Some of the attempts at Christian games have contained various efforts of [SIZE=-1]proletyzing (in various degrees of heavy-handedness), rather than focus on a setting where some of the really cool bits of Christianity (its run-ins with history, the early Church's struggles to stay alive, doctrinal conflicts) could shine. There's really no need to hit people over the head in that sort of game--its an exciting period, a theme that would likely interest a lot of Christian and non-Christian gamers alike. Or maybe that last bit's just wishful thinking on my part, but I think it sounds fantastic. :)[/SIZE]
Quote from: Hastur T. FannonOne game/sourcebook that hasn't been brought up yet is the Inquisition sourcebook for the oWoD. Some fantastic stuff it there that would fit the ideas mentioned in the OP
I enjoyed reading that one, don't know that I'd ever want to play a campaign of it, but it was well written I thought. (course, I normally enjoy reading WW books, just depresses me that (judging from my experience at least) a rl game wouldn't actually allow a lot of the discovery. YMMV Great read, sold it off awhile ago in the hope that someone else would enjoy it.
Quote from: Hastur T. FannonBut I agree with MysticAges and the Pundit. A "Christian RPG" would be bad for the same reason that "Christian" "music" is almost universally dreadful. One-dimensional and if the writers/musicians could cut it in the "real world" they wouldn't need to confine themselves to the ghetto
I think a major problem in both games and music when you add "Christian" is that people focus on the one side over the other, either the game/music is great but there is nothing "Christian" about it, or it's tightly "Christian" focused but the game/music compunant blows. I do think that there are people who have made it work, (I can think of more music artist then games, but I'd expect the Settlers of Canan to rock as Catan does) just that it's rare. As a christian myself, I find some of the attempts to be not just lacking, but insulting as well. But when the combo works, it's great.
The example of mixing things that comes to mind is Shaun of the Dead, :jaw-dropping: nope, not mixing in Christianity, but in mixing movie types, like it says on the box, a Romantic Comedy with Zombies. They set out to make a movie that was both a good Zombie movie, and a good Romantic Comedy. If either side of the equasion failed, the movie wouldn't be as good. Myself it think they pass the test with flying colors. It's rare, but possible.
Quote from: Zachary The First(BTW, Pundit, not to derail the thread, but killing civilians in the Left Behind shooter affects you negatively (in fact, you chances in the game improve when you recruit them, not slaughter them wantonly, which is considered a bad thing), the UN isn't evil in the game in and of itself, but has been changed into the fascist Global Community through the aims of the AntiChrist (a pretty good excuse), and your true enemy is considered demons and the armies of the AntiChrist, I'm told. Interesting article on it here (http://pc.gamespy.com/pc/left-behind-eternal-forces/700684p1.html)).
Dude, the concept is still the same. Children in the United States are being taught that the U.N. WILL become the tool of the antichrist, if they aren't being taught that it already is. They're taught that everyone who isn't an evangelical christian protestant will end up serving the anti-christ, and let's not forget the little detail about believing that all of these people will be doomed to the lake of fire after Jesus comes back...
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditDude, the concept is still the same. Children in the United States are being taught that the U.N. WILL become the tool of the antichrist, if they aren't being taught that it already is. They're taught that everyone who isn't an evangelical christian protestant will end up serving the anti-christ, and let's not forget the little detail about believing that all of these people will be doomed to the lake of fire after Jesus comes back...
RPGPundit
Some kids in the US are, sure. I have my own issues with some strains of evangelical Christianity, and I grant you there's a lot wrong with how they're seeing things nowadays. But I'll save the rest of my griping on that in Off Topic. :)
Quote from: RPGPunditDude, the concept is still the same. Children in the United States are being taught that the U.N. WILL become the tool of the antichrist, if they aren't being taught that it already is. They're taught that everyone who isn't an evangelical christian protestant will end up serving the anti-christ, and let's not forget the little detail about believing that all of these people will be doomed to the lake of fire after Jesus comes back...
It's "This Present Darkness" all over again. I still get "My Little Pony" flashbacks...
Quote from: RPGPunditDude, the concept is still the same. Children in the United States are being taught that the U.N. WILL become the tool of the antichrist, if they aren't being taught that it already is. They're taught that everyone who isn't an evangelical christian protestant will end up serving the anti-christ, and let's not forget the little detail about believing that all of these people will be doomed to the lake of fire after Jesus comes back...
RPGPundit
I know some of this is true, but it is a bit of a stereotype. I have never seen any of this in action personally, and I sure as hell don't know anybody who is teaching their kids this kind of stuff. Not to say the US doesn't have it's share of snake handeling fools, though...
Quote from: Zachary The First Some kids in the US are, sure. I have my own issues with some strains of evangelical Christianity, and I grant you there's a lot wrong with how they're seeing things nowadays. But I'll save the rest of my griping on that in Off Topic. :)
Did you see what the sales figures were for the "Left Behind: Teens" series of books?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditDid you see what the sales figures were for the "Left Behind: Teens" series of books?
RPGPundit
From what I hear, they're through the roof. That whole franchise is, though, so its really no surprise.
Quote from: RPGPunditHell, Jong's character was Joseph of Arimathea!
RPGPundit
Don't forget the Holy Grail listed in my gear section. ;)
Quote from: JongWKDon't forget the Holy Grail listed in my gear section. ;)
Well, you would have rocked in any Arthurian setting. :p
Quote from: Zachary The FirstWell, you would have rocked in any Arthurian setting. :p
Did I forget to mention that Vespasian had Excalibur?
This could have been an interesting thread too. The weight of prejudice and pidgeonholing has killed it.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadThis could have been an interesting thread too. The weight of prejudice and pidgeonholing has killed it.
Well, I'd still be interested in seeing a thematic game based on the early church, as per Clinton's description.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadThis could have been an interesting thread too. The weight of prejudice and pidgeonholing has killed it.
Where exactly is the prejudice and pidgeonholing? I don't think a single one of us here has universally painted all Christians with the same brush, or said that under no circumstances would any christian-themed game be interesting?
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditWhere exactly is the prejudice and pidgeonholing? I don't think a single one of us here has universally painted all Christians with the same brush, or said that under no circumstances would any christian-themed game be interesting?
Not all Christians... or American Christians... are fundamentalists or filled with a fear of the UN (the irony! I see the UN as a well meaning but essentially impotent body.) From page one, this thread has been a rant on the US religious right and the crypto-polical nature of the Left Behind game. I'm just trying to be realistic here and accept that it's going to be pretty hard to divert this thread from that course and discuss the notion of a Christian RPG untainted by that.
Quote from: Caesar SlaadNot all Christians... or American Christians... are fundamentalists or filled with a fear of the UN (the irony! I see the UN as a well meaning but essentially impotent body.) From page one, this thread has been a rant on the US religious right and the crypto-polical nature of the Left Behind game. I'm just trying to be realistic here and accept that it's going to be pretty hard to divert this thread from that course and discuss the notion of a Christian RPG untainted by that.
Given how
Christianity has been "tainted" by that, there is little that can be done about this.
The point is no one here is claiming that mainstream Anglicans are a gang of looneys who want to blow up the UN building.
And everyone here, myself included, argued that you CAN make good games with Christian thematics or exploring periods of Christian history, etc.
But that doesn't ignore the fact of the existence of a huge branch of American Christianity that is sending their kids to places like Jesus Camp... (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0486358/)
RPGPundit
Quote from: RPGPunditThe point is no one here is claiming that mainstream Anglicans are a gang of looneys who want to blow up the UN building
Oh really? Rowan Williams was only two blocks away when the planes hit the Twin Towers. Coincidence? OR CONSPIRACY!?!??
Quote from: Hastur T. FannonOh really? Rowan Williams was only two blocks away when the planes hit the Twin Towers. Coincidence? OR CONSPIRACY!?!??
The Queen is head of the Anglican Church. Just saying... ;)