I had the idea for this when I was checking out someone's profile on RPGGeek, which happened to have the words Chaotic Evil in it. But did I think instantly of D&D alignments? Well ok, yes I did, but then I thought Hang on, there's a game in there somewhere. Ok, but what kind of game? No-brainer, a game about ever so slightly incompetent trainee demons of course. It's also by way of being a dig at the 'D&D turns harmless teenagers into psychopathic killers' school of journalism. Lest I get whacked by the same stick, I've made clear in the rules that the characters can only do very low-level evil, and that the GM should explicitly steer players away from disturbing themes. Not sure that'll be enough to ward off potential criticism however. I haven't got a system yet, but tbh if folks say 'Don't do it, it's pants' I won't bother. Anyhow, here's the link.

So, thoughts?

I don't think roleplayers should ever be encouraged to roleplay purely psychopathic evil characters.

By "psychopathic" I mean amoral:- without conscience. Characters that have excessively shallow emotional affect.

This is a realisation I have only recently come to, and I've been a roleplayer for 30 years, and very much a thinking one with a wide range of experiences, so pay heed. It doesn't apply for gamers who don't "get" immersion but you can't make a rules-light game with a 1-PC-per-player rule and not have *some* gamers immersing, so it probably applies to any style of game you personally (Leo) would make.

What will you do to give your demons personalities and redeeming features?

How will you justify that in the fiction?

Watch Little Nicky for inspiration. Maybe you can get licensed. Then again [SPOILER ALERT]



[SPOILER ALERT]

 Little Nicky himself was a one-off angel-demon hybrid. [/SPOILER ALERT] [/SPOILER ALERT]

Quote from: Omnifray;616661I don't think roleplayers should ever be encouraged to roleplay purely psychopathic evil characters.

By "psychopathic" I mean amoral:- without conscience. Characters that have excessively shallow emotional affect.

This is a realisation I have only recently come to, and I've been a roleplayer for 30 years, and very much a thinking one with a wide range of experiences, so pay heed. It doesn't apply for gamers who don't "get" immersion but you can't make a rules-light game with a 1-PC-per-player rule and not have *some* gamers immersing, so it probably applies to any style of game you personally (Leo) would make.

Thanks, will take that under advisement.

Quote from: Omnifray;616661What will you do to give your demons personalities and redeeming features?

How will you justify that in the fiction?

They'll take on human personalities, with human strengths and weaknesses in addition to their own (limited) supernatural powers. I imagine they'll take over human bodies but won't get it quite right, so they'll end up lurching about like the cockroach guy from MIB (one of the most inspired characters in fiction IMO).

Incidentally, as the game references D&D I plan to make the rules somewhat on the crunchy side.

Quote from: catty_big;616370I had the idea for this when I was checking out someone's profile on RPGGeek, which happened to have the words Chaotic Evil in it. But did I think instantly of D&D alignments? Well ok, yes I did, but then I thought Hang on, there's a game in there somewhere. Ok, but what kind of game? No-brainer, a game about ever so slightly incompetent trainee demons of course.

Been done.

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/26014/the-imp-game

Quote from: Omnifray;616661I don't think roleplayers should ever be encouraged to roleplay purely psychopathic evil characters.

I disagree completely and entirely.

I think playing purely psychopathic evil characters can be a fun release and excercise. As a GM, I play these kinds of characters all the time, after all, so why shouldn't players be able to play them too?

One of the most fun games I've ever run was my "Vile Darkness" game, inspired by the D&D 3e "Book of Vile Darkness". My instructions to the players is that they were to make extremely irredeemably evil characters; these were not sympathetic characters, they were to be rotten to the core, bad seeds, and have no redeeming features whatsoever. The more revolting and disgustingly vile they were, the better. The unifying factor was they were all members of the Cult of Orcus. The game was set in the Forgotten Realms, and we used the Book of Vile Darkness and it's, um, "special" prestige classes and rules.

It was a really fun game and we all had a blast with it.

It's not the kind of thing you can do all the time, but as a short little campaign to really get your Evil On, it can be a ton of fun. Eventually we put it down and went back to more heroic games... but every once in a while we'll talk about that game fondly and the rotten things everyone did and laugh about it.

And we're Immersion players around here. Being Immersive doesn't mean not knowing the difference between fantasy and reality, after all.

It may be fair to say that Omnifray shouldn't be encouraged to roleplay purely psychopathic evil, but don't project that onto the rest of us, please!

Quote from: Doctor Jest;617057Been done.

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/26014/the-imp-game

The Imp Game? Been done:
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/18723/aye-dark-overlord

Plus, they're both card games, not table top RPGs (slightly different market), and in any case I'm setting Chaotic Evil in 'reality' rather than fantasy. Also, there are already several hundred D&D clones out there, and yet more come out all the time. No, I don't think similarity to other games is a problem; rather the reverse: games that are wildly removed from existing games get a far rougher ride, I guess because folks need what MadMen call 'hooks' to buy into a product, whether it be card games, RPGs, or cars. Look how many cars are produced every year that look almost identical to the hundreds of other cars that came before them.

Quote from: catty_big;617067Plus, they're both card games, not table top RPGs (slightly different market)

The one I linked is an RPG, not a card game. I have it. Board Game Geek misclassified it. Here's it's RPG geek link:
http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/56318/mischief-mayhem-revised-edition

Quote from: Doctor Jest;617062I disagree completely and entirely.

I also disagree, but only slightly entirely. I see where Matt’s coming from: I think the danger is where a game mimics ‘real’ life (of  course, neither Chaotic Evil nor KPfS mimic real real life, although there are obviously people in real real life who are genuinely psychopathic and wouldn’t think of killing pets as abhorrent). Yes, we slaughter loads of NPCs and fellow PCs in fantasy games like D&D but there it’s almost like cartoon violence, i.e. we can divorce it from reality. But yes, I agree with you that being psychopathic in a game is a way of channeling violence, like young children play-fighting with sticks; humans have a natural propensity to violence, better it be worked out of our systems through games than in real real life.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;617062It may be fair to say that Omnifray shouldn't be encouraged to roleplay purely psychopathic evil, but don't project that onto the rest of us, please!

Ah, now here I agree with you entirely. I gather that at larps Matt is known to slaver uncontrollably at the sight of a weapon, and when there is heavy combat they lock him in a shed blindfolded and gagged, lest he break out and start laying about him with a chainsaw. I believe that one lunch break he was heard to ask for human liver, with f-f-f-fava beans and a bottle of Chianti.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;617070The one I linked is an RPG, not a card game. I have it. Board Game Geek misclassified it. Here's its RPG geek link:
http://rpggeek.com/rpgitem/56318/mischief-mayhem-revised-edition

Ah, ok. Still, I reckon I can differentiate enough to ward off lawyers. They're terrific at marketing, mind: nearly three years on and they've garnered zero ratings and zero comments; no threads, and only two users owning. Don't suppose I'll fare any better though :boohoo:. Anyway, I'm sure it's a fun game, and see my other comments about products being similar to other products already on the market.

I played in a wonderfully fucked up pirate game years ago where every character was evil in the extreme. We all had earned the gallows and it was the close of the Age of Piracy and the law was closing in on us. Our goals? Make enough money and escape into obscurity where hopefully we would never be found; die in a blaze of infamy or perhaps become too useful to the powers that be and somehow become "respectable".

So we sailed as a fleet of rivals, a nightmare brotherhood bent on destruction and betrayal. The campaign did not last long, but it was badass in its crazy.

CE is a fine RPG experience...with the right group of players. I think you need a bunch of immature dorks pounding booze and cracking jokes (us) or a group who takes it seriously and intelligently (not us) and certainly not a mix of the two.

I ran a CoC event a con years ago that I billed as NC-17 for adult gamers because everyone was a death row convict in a maximum security prison that get to decide the fate of humanity. The players were hardcore serious and it was a deeply intense session. Was it fun? Hmmm...I don't know, but the players thought it rocked because it was transgressive in its creepiness and that certainly appeals to certain horror fans (me definitely).

Quote from: catty_big;617076I also disagree, but only slightly entirely. I see where Matt’s coming from: I think the danger is where a game mimics ‘real’ life

I don't agree there either. Of course, I only play with adults who know the difference between fantasy and reality. If you're playing with mentally unstable people, then they should probably avoid roleplaying entirely. For the average person, however, there's nothing wrong with it.

You also may want to think very carefully before making any claims that RPGs, no matter the themes involved in play, have any potential to cause someone any kind of real harm. We really don't need some anti-RPG activists latching onto "admissions" that the game could be dangerous. Which, to be clear, I genuinely believe is a completely ridiculous idea.

I never thought I'd be trying to convince actual roleplayers that Pat Pulling was wrong. Come on guys.

Quote from: catty_big;617080Ah, ok. Still, I reckon I can differentiate enough to ward off lawyers. They're terrific at marketing, mind: nearly three years on and they've garnered zero ratings and zero comments; no threads, and only two users owning. Don't suppose I'll fare any better though :boohoo:. Anyway, I'm sure it's a fun game, and see my other comments about products being similar to other products already on the market.

I think the company went out of business. Sign o' the times and all that.

But the point was, it's not untrodden ground. Seeing what others have done in the arena is probably a good thing when designing something.

Quote from: Spinachcat;617112CE is a fine RPG experience...with the right group of players. I think you need a bunch of immature dorks pounding booze and cracking jokes (us) or a group who takes it seriously and intelligently (not us) and certainly not a mix of the two.

We were the latter during the game, and the former when discussing the game.

QuoteThe players were hardcore serious and it was a deeply intense session. Was it fun? Hmmm...I don't know, but the players thought it rocked because it was transgressive in its creepiness and that certainly appeals to certain horror fans (me definitely).

And me. I love that stuff.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;617134If you're playing with mentally unstable people, then they should probably avoid roleplaying entirely.

Sure, but people sometimes have underlying psychological problems without realising it until they play games like Penny For My Thoughts, which is why such games have health warnings. Granted, that doesn't apply to CE although it could apply to CoC, depending on the sort of game the Keeper is planning on running. I only expressed nervousness about the content of CE because I don't want Moms Against Blah on my case. It's all very well saying 'Fuck 'em', but I wouldn't want that kind of thing this early in my career.

Quote from: Doctor Jest;617134We really don't need some anti-RPG activists latching onto "admissions" that the game could be dangerous. Which, to be clear, I genuinely believe is a completely ridiculous idea.

It is, but see above.

Quote from: Spinachcat;617112I played in a wonderfully fucked up pirate game years ago where every character was evil in the extreme. [W]e sailed as a fleet of rivals, a nightmare brotherhood bent on destruction and betrayal. The campaign did not last long, but it was badass in its crazy.

Sounds terrific fun. I think pirate games can only really go one way, i.e. with 'Aaaarrrr ye scurvy dogs' type dialogue, and with every Yes a 'Yaarrr!' and every No a 'Naaarrr!'.  

Quote from: Spinachcat;617112CE is a fine RPG experience...with the right group of players. I think you need a bunch of immature dorks pounding booze and cracking jokes (us) or a group who takes it seriously and intelligently (not us) and certainly not a mix of the two.

Yes, definitely.

Quote from: Spinachcat;617112I ran a CoC event a con years ago that I billed as NC-17 for adult gamers because everyone was a death row convict in a maximum security prison that get to decide the fate of humanity. The players were hardcore serious and it was a deeply intense session. Was it fun? Hmmm...I don't know, but the players thought it rocked because it was transgressive in its creepiness and that certainly appeals to certain horror fans (me definitely).

CoC, like most horror, can go either deathly serious or way out gonzo (which might be a sort of release mechanism), which I think is what I think puts a lot of folks off. If you want real creepy horror with reduced potential for the players to gonzo it up, depending on the GM you need something like either Dead of Night or Hot War. (Yes I know hot War isn't supposed to be in itself creepy but the way a particular guy on the UK roleplaying scene runs it it's definitely not for the faint-hearted).

Following a bit of discussion on another forum, I've had some more ideas for CE:

As D&D features in the game*, I thought it would be a good idea to make it reasonably crunchy. In keeping with the theme of bungling ineptness, I’m toying with the idea of having negative, rather than positive stats. Frx, you have average stats in all your basic skills, but would also have an Ineptness stat which would come off your roll, which could however be modded by various traits and triggers accruing to your mortal form, so if you chose a hard-drinkind construction worker you could get a bonus when you used STR, or in a scene in a bar. Alternatively, all your stats could be minus numbers, and the TN would be say half d+1 (i.e. 6 off a d10, 7 off a d12, 11 off a d20 etc.) the more missions you complete the higher the hedrality you can use. You can spend MP (Mwa-ha-ha Points to buff your stat, or a ton of them to guarantee success. The scene would then go from being PC>NPC to PC>PC, potentially cutting the NPCs out of the action entirely.

I’ve got an idea for char gen which I think is pretty cool (standing by to be told that it features in game X by designer Y): during the set-up phase all the players fill out a char sheet with things like age, gender, job, body type, edges and hindrances etc. (e.g. tenacious vs alcoholic, or a trait that could be either positive or negative- resolute/obstinate, cf. Jaws of the Six Serpents), then all the sheets are put into a hat and drawn randomly. The players would then be able to spend 1-3 MPs (they’ll be given 3 MP at the start) to change one-three things about their character. Then they are randomly given their missions, may look at them briefly and then will each have the opportunity once to either move all the missions one place to left or right, exchange theirs with another player, or reshuffle them, or all the above, again by spending 1-3 MPs. Whatever MPs remain unspent at the start of the game proper can be spent during the first mission.  

What to do about having several missions going on at once? Option 1: have one overall mission for the player party, frx Evil Under the Sun: you are ordered to visit the seaside on a blisteringly hot summer’s day to ruin folks’ holidays. You each say what you intend to do- cause havoc at the beach, in the amusement park, in the bars and cafes etc.- then, if you see another player doing well, jump into his or her scene and try to thwart their plans. Option 2: have separate missions, but during the set-up phase build rivalries into char gen, so that the players always know who they want to try to screw over during the game, regardless of the mission. Option 3: same as Option 2, but simply have the players jump in and out of each other’s scenes, encouraging them with the promise of earning the other player’s MP should they succeed, and accordingly rising in the estimation of the Boss.

*Might have to low-ball that- don't want a visit by sharp-suited lawyers from WoTbro.

P.S. Moved house yesterday; still dealing with the fall-out from that so will be off the forums for the most part for the next few days. Keep them suggestions coming though. Thanks.

I think the subtlety of my position may have been missed.

I'm not saying you should never play a chaotic evil character.

What I'm saying is, the character should have some redeeming feature... even if it's very faint.

Perhaps you're an evil anti-paladin, but you have a soft spot for kittens.

Or simply, you're in love with a priestess of mercy.

There is a big difference between evil and psychopathic.

And Leo, c'mon - Italian wine? You surely realise that nothing goes better with liver and fava beans than Australian Shiraz. This is what I mean about the subtlety of my position having been missed...