Quote from: StuartI have no idea what Pundit means by Swine anymore.  Is Ron Edwards a Swine?  Is Vincent Baker a Swine? Is Mark Rein·Hagen a Swine?  Is Rebecca Borgstrom a Swine?  

Yes to all of the above.

QuoteOr are Swine only the people who play the games?  

Not necessarily all of them.

QuoteOr is it just a generic insult like "Jerk"?  :confused:

No.

RPGPundit

Why is Mark Rein·Hagen a Swine?

Quote from: jrientsPundit takes every little opening he can find.  No matter how ridiculous.  It's just how he rolls.

This wasn't a particularly small Jab. The Forge's identity depends on the idea that it is somehow a "legitimately academic" way of looking at RPGs.  That they are using "academic" methods, and have people qualified by way of their expertises to be able to look at RPGs in an intellectual and academic way.

My point in posting his C.V. is to say that essentially, he is NOT an academic in any meaningful way that could be related to RPGs, and that the methods he use have no bearing with the academic disciplines that could be used to do REAL research on RPGs.

Not, note, that real research on RPGs would be particularly desireable.

RPGpundit

Quote from: James McMurrayIt's still two more games then Pundit's written, making his claim that there's a lack of credentials an outright lie.

He might be able to make some sort of a claim of being a successful RPG writer (though he wasnt yet at the time he formulated GNS), but that's neither here nor there with anything to do with any claims of being an "academic expert" on RPGs.

RPGPundit

Quote from: StuartWhy is Mark Rein·Hagen a Swine?

It's that little dot thingy.  I hate it when Pundit seems to be calling half the gamers on the internet swine, but that frickin' dot makes me think he's got at least one guy pegged correctly.

Quote from: jrientsI'd say that a claim that Edwards lacks academic credentials on the subject of RPG theory is obvious to any non-partisan.

Whether the lack of credentials matters is a far different question.  Does he browbeat people with his PhD?  Does he claim some insight into gaming because of his biology background?  If not, his lack of academic credentials is irrelevant.

Not only does the forge as a whole do so, trying to present the veneer of academia and intellectualism in everything they do, but Edwards' fanboys have repeatedly pointed out that he's a professor so he must know what he's doing.

Ironically, Edwards himself used the fact that he's a biologist as his justification for expertise as to being warranted in claiming that Mainstream RPG gamers are all Brain Damaged.

RPGPundit

Quote from: StuartWhy is Mark Rein·Hagen a Swine?

He was one of the early and foremost proponents of the idea that RPGs are a higher art, and that a certain type of RPG (Vampire) is a HIGHER higher art than other games, that those people are therefore playing RPGs wrong, and that RPGs are meant to be serious artwork for goths.

For all of that, he deserves the Spiked Baseball Bat of Truth to the head.

RPGpundit

Quote from: RPGPunditIronically, Edwards himself used the fact that he's a biologist as his justification for expertise as to being warranted in claiming that Mainstream RPG gamers are all Brain Damaged.

Yeah.  It's the one figleaf you've got going on here, I think.  If he had said "I know all about bat wangs, so let me tell you..." then would we even be having this discussion?

I'm thinking there better be a poll thread to follow the current pistols at dawn:

Who won?

Pundit

Settembrini

Spike?

Quote from: SpikeI'm thinking there better be a poll thread to follow the current pistols at dawn:

Who won?

Pundit

Settembrini

Spike?

The Swine because they are so few but yet give so much

Regards,
David R

Quote from: David RThe Swine because they are so few but yet give so much

Regards,
David R

Alas, hoist by my own petard... beaten by the write in vote!!!



Now I'll never by famous.

Quote from: Abyssal MawYou say that, and yet here you are...

I'm not quite sure what that means.

Quote from: jrientsI'd say that a claim that Edwards lacks academic credentials on the subject of RPG theory is obvious to any non-partisan.

Whether the lack of credentials matters is a far different question.  Does he browbeat people with his PhD?  Does he claim some insight into gaming because of his biology background?  If not, his lack of academic credentials is irrelevant.

True, but Pundit didn't say he "lacked academic credentials on the subject of RPG theory." He said "the absolute lack of any qualifications relating to actual RPG theory." That's a whole different beast there. It's the difference between the two that I am calling an outright lie. Pundit might not like his games, but as a credited and selling* game designer, he has more qualifications under his belt for theory than Pundit.

Quote from: Elliot WilenI agree.

There are at least two problems with gaming discourse, neither of which GNS solved, in fact arguably GNS made them worse.

1. People unable to express their opinions of certain styles of play, without attacking the aesthetic judgment of others. Or at least being seen to do so. For example the guy who says that exploring themes is superior to overcoming tactical challenges.

2. People "agreeing to disagree" about aesthetic judgments, while reserving a priviledged aesthetic interpretation (which implies an aesthetic judgment after all). For example the guy who says "How wonderful for you that you enjoy playing games with a traditional GM!" but adds, "Good on you for enjoying being led through the GM's story. I personally don't like that stuff."  Basically it's a version of the Loaded Question.

I seriously doubt any amount of theorizing will fix either of those, because they come down to a personal choice on whether to be an ass or not. If you want to be an ass then you mix in judgement calls when explaining about your favorites, and you refuse to agree to disagree. If you don't want to be an ass you maintain the stance that others' opinions are different but work for them.

QuoteHe might be able to make some sort of a claim of being a successful RPG writer (though he wasnt yet at the time he formulated GNS), but that's neither here nor there with anything to do with any claims of being an "academic expert" on RPGs.

I never said it did. I just said you're a liar. I don't really care whether Edwards is a liar or not, because I'm not around, and he's not as fun to poke in the eye as a paranoid delusional fool with an inferiority/superiority complex and more "fucktards" coming out of his keyboard than good idea.

If I were to frequent the forge and saw Edwards telling lies about you I'd say the exact types of same things.

QuoteHe was one of the early and foremost proponents of the idea that RPGs are a higher art, and that a certain type of RPG (Vampire) is a HIGHER higher art than other games, that those people are therefore playing RPGs wrong, and that RPGs are meant to be serious artwork for goths.

See, when you say your favorite game is better than Pundit's, you're swine. When you say his game is better, you're smart. It's all about which direction your words stroke the ego.

Quote from: SpikeNow I'll never by famous.

Sure you can. All you gotta do is learn how to call someone a derogatory name, pick a group you don't like, then start a blog about how they suck. The hard part, that I give Pundit credit for, is starting a board where a bunch of people will come and talk games even though it means sometimes being ranted at when they "cross the line in the war." I don't know how he did that. It's not him, because I see a lot of folks posting without caring what he does, although he does add a laugh every now and then with the frothing and the spittle.