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Building a Better 3e

Started by gamerGoyf, August 24, 2013, 07:52:10 PM

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hamstertamer

#30
August 27, 2013, 09:57:56 AM
Quote from: jadrax;685363I quite liked the idea, but due to the rules I am not sure it worked very well in practice.

Yeah, but it does work in practice.  They even made it a bit easier to multi-class in Pathfinder.  Oh well, I guess some don't like being burdened with responsible.
Gary Gygax - "It is suggested that you urge your players to provide painted figures representing their characters, henchmen, and hirelings involved in play."

Imp

#31
August 27, 2013, 02:46:08 PM
Quote from: Ladybird;685432If you were dealing with a relatively small level range, could you perhaps base your design around assuming characters will be multiclassed? Design classes to, say, be 6 levels long by default and really focussed, level cap of 10, and assume that characters will all have bits of three classes.

I have long thought that the fighter class in particular should top out at 8 or 10 levels. The reason is that, conceptually, a lot of people disagree about what a high-level fighter should be and most of that should really be tied into the setting. Do they become quasi-divine Herculesoid figures? Do they gain some sort of wuxia power? Resist magic due to their heroic spirits but otherwise remain essentially human(oid)? Confer inherent magic into the weapons they wield? Do they incorporate sorcery into their bodies to boost their fighting powers beyond the merely mortal? These are all setting concerns and no one path should be the default for all campaigns, I don't think.

soviet

#32
August 27, 2013, 03:55:03 PM
Quote from: Imp;686172I have long thought that the fighter class in particular should top out at 8 or 10 levels. The reason is that, conceptually, a lot of people disagree about what a high-level fighter should be and most of that should really be tied into the setting. Do they become quasi-divine Herculesoid figures? Do they gain some sort of wuxia power? Resist magic due to their heroic spirits but otherwise remain essentially human(oid)? Confer inherent magic into the weapons they wield? Do they incorporate sorcery into their bodies to boost their fighting powers beyond the merely mortal? These are all setting concerns and no one path should be the default for all campaigns, I don't think.

That's actually not a bad solution, and it's something that 3e can very easily resolve using prestige classes. You could have stuff like Hercules Strong Guy, Conan Murder Elemental, Warlord Strategy Guy, King + Castle Full of Followers Guy, and so on. The trick would be in giving those prestige classes enough power to compete with full casters and not feeling tied down to what a normal schmuck in armour could achieve.
Buy Other Worlds, it\'s a multi-genre storygame excuse for an RPG designed to wreck the hobby from within

Ladybird

#33
August 27, 2013, 06:07:35 PM
Quote from: Imp;686172I have long thought that the fighter class in particular should top out at 8 or 10 levels. The reason is that, conceptually, a lot of people disagree about what a high-level fighter should be and most of that should really be tied into the setting. Do they become quasi-divine Herculesoid figures? Do they gain some sort of wuxia power? Resist magic due to their heroic spirits but otherwise remain essentially human(oid)? Confer inherent magic into the weapons they wield? Do they incorporate sorcery into their bodies to boost their fighting powers beyond the merely mortal? These are all setting concerns and no one path should be the default for all campaigns, I don't think.

Yeah, again, that would force multiclassing, and if you keep your level cap low and place your abilities well, you force a lot of interesting choices for gearheads, and provide a lot of scope for roleplayers to customize their characters.
one two FUCK YOU

Votan

#34
August 27, 2013, 06:50:31 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard;6860141)Remove individual initiative.

2)Make spellcasters declare casting prior to initiative roll.

3)No movement for any caster who casts that round.

4)No DEX bonus to AC while casting.

5)A successful hit disrupts the spell.

6) People will want to play fighters again.

That solves a shocking range of issues with full casters and tends to make things like "maximize dexterity" less obvious power routes.  

I also want to note that multi-classing was not an issue in early 3.0 D&D.  Prestige classes, the back-bone of the problem, were a small (and optional) section of the DMG with some remarkably fun, yet not overpowered, options.

I didn't stay that way for long . . . but it started okay.

gamerGoyf

#35
August 27, 2013, 08:28:56 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard;6860141)Remove individual initiative.

2)Make spellcasters declare casting prior to initiative roll.

3)No movement for any caster who casts that round.

4)No DEX bonus to AC while casting.

5)A successful hit disrupts the spell.

6) People will want to play fighters again.

No people will just not want to not play your game. The problem with fighters is that they are underpowered. Not just relative to the other classes but to the monsters the game assumes they will be facing. Slapping a stack of nerfs on the classes that are actually up to par only renders the game less playable.

Imp

#36
August 27, 2013, 09:21:02 PM
So you assume they will be facing different monsters, or else adjust those.

Opaopajr

#37
August 27, 2013, 10:53:24 PM
Quote from: gamerGoyf;686252No people will just not want to not play your game. The problem with fighters is that they are underpowered. Not just relative to the other classes but to the monsters the game assumes they will be facing. Slapping a stack of nerfs on the classes that are actually up to par only renders the game less playable.

It only affects fans of 3.x/PF. Everyone else is quite fine.

That said, stay focused. What sort of nerfs to multi-classing do you prefer, and why? I already showed two past methods and you stated a preference for the former. Where else are you going with that?
Just make your fuckin\' guy and roll the dice, you pricks. Focus on what\'s interesting, not what gives you the biggest randomly generated virtual penis.  -- J Arcane
 
You know, people keep comparing non-TSR D&D to deck-building in Magic: the Gathering. But maybe it\'s more like Katamari Damacy. You keep sticking shit on your characters until they are big enough to be a star.
-- talysman

Saplatt

#38
August 27, 2013, 11:11:52 PM
To get even more basic, why do you want multi-classing in the first place?

I can think of three reasons:

1. Power gaming
2. Because you've got a small gaming group, you don't want to mess with NPCs or henchmen, and you want to try to cover the standard bases.
3. Because you've got some unique character in mind who doesn't fall within one of the standard classes.

If (1) isn't a factor, then why not just have more class options?  And options within classes? And isn't this exactly the direction Pathfinder's been going with things like the Advanced Player's Guide?

Doom

#39
August 27, 2013, 11:27:07 PM
Quote from: Imp;686269So you assume they will be facing different monsters, or else adjust those.

Agreed, the DM can easily just use "lower level" monsters if reducing the ridiculous buffs spellcasters received really make things too hard for the players.

On the other hand, much of the game is "spellcaster only" now...put the classes on remotely even footing, making monsters an even challenge is a trivial problem next to that.
(taken during hurricane winds)

A nice education blog.

Bloody Stupid Johnson

#40
August 28, 2013, 12:25:40 AM
Quote from: Votan;686230I didn't stay that way for long . . . but it started okay.

They gotta sell the splatbooks somehow man :p

Ladybird

#41
August 28, 2013, 08:22:21 AM
Quote from: gamerGoyf;686252No people will just not want to not play your game. The problem with fighters is that they are underpowered. Not just relative to the other classes but to the monsters the game assumes they will be facing. Slapping a stack of nerfs on the classes that are actually up to par only renders the game less playable.

Oh dear.

Are you one of the people that believes "balance" is obtained by, if something is overpowered, making everything else overpowered too so that you don't lose your special toys? Because that way leads to things being a fucking mess and your system eventually breaking.

You need to establish a clear baseline, and work towards that. Not work out what's the most powerful and work towards making everything that level.
one two FUCK YOU

Exploderwizard

#42
August 28, 2013, 12:12:14 PM
Quote from: gamerGoyf;686252No people will just not want to not play your game. The problem with fighters is that they are underpowered. Not just relative to the other classes but to the monsters the game assumes they will be facing. Slapping a stack of nerfs on the classes that are actually up to par only renders the game less playable.

My bad. I thought you wanted to fix 3E not create a fantasy wuxia game.

If you turn everything up to 11, where can you go from there? Nowhere.
Quote from: JonWakeGamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than \'oh, neat, what\'s this do?\', the reaction is to decide if it\'s a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.

Piestrio

#43
August 28, 2013, 12:17:37 PM
Quote from: Exploderwizard;6860141)Remove individual initiative.

2)Make spellcasters declare casting prior to initiative roll.

3)No movement for any caster who casts that round.

4)No DEX bonus to AC while casting.

5)A successful hit disrupts the spell.

6) People will want to play fighters again.


Even just #5 does wonders.
Disclaimer: I attach no moral weight to the way you choose to pretend to be an elf.

Currently running: The Great Pendragon Campaign & DC Adventures - Timberline
Currently Playing: AD&D

Exploderwizard

#44
August 28, 2013, 12:35:39 PM
Quote from: Piestrio;686484Even just #5 does wonders.

Yup, but actually doing it is tougher in the turn based initiative environment when the wizard can simply move out of reach before casting.

To me thats like moving your ships around after a game of Battleship starts.
Quote from: JonWakeGamers, as a whole, are much like primitive cavemen when confronted with a new game. Rather than \'oh, neat, what\'s this do?\', the reaction is to decide if it\'s a sex hole, then hit it with a rock.

Quote from: Old Geezer;724252At some point it seems like D&D is going to disappear up its own ass.

Quote from: Kyle Aaron;766997In the randomness of the dice lies the seed for the great oak of creativity and fun. The great virtue of the dice is that they come without boxed text.
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