Sorry for the delay in refutation. Ron and I were at a KKK rally raping young, crippled Jewish girls. Let me just take a draught of this Kool-Aid... ::slurp:: Ah, refreshing! Now we can get started.



Granted, we all write from our experience and Ron is no exception, but you realize that nothing that you or John has quoted says that Ron played in a dysfunctional Vampire game with a hell GM in the early 90s, right?

Which is my point. You're reading into Ron's stuff. And you're spending one hell of a lot of time dwelling on his ravings. Perhaps too much time given your history at the Forge and your feelings about Ron and his ideas. It's kind of creepy, man.

I only skimmed those posts during that particular kerfufflee, but what's interesting to me is how similar Ron's remarks seem to be to our not-so-illustrious host's. Sounds like a lot of swine-inspired rants to me. But what do I know? Ron's saying that Vampire and other "storytelling" games didn't facilitate the creation of group-based narrative fiction as they were written. The narrative fiction was injected into those trad designs via either strict adherence to metagame or by the players improvising.

And personally, I like my art full of demons. Art from completely rational, normal people is often boring or uninspired (or nonexistent).

-L

PS Oh, and ask and you shall receive, Ron posted a series of AP posts about his D&D game that he played with his neighbors last spring. Oh look, and he had fun, too.

Quote from: lukeI only skimmed those posts during that particular kerfufflee, but what's interesting to me is how similar Ron's remarks seem to be to our not-so-illustrious host's. Sounds like a lot of swine-inspired rants to me. But what do I know?

I agree 100%. Threadcrapping his merry way through What RPG Would YOU Use To Introduce People To The Hobby?, the pundit has indeed come very close to suggesting that not playing D&D/d20 will handicap people, viz. Didn't that old German reactionary Nietzsche once say something about 'staring too deep into the abyss', or summat?

Quote from: lukeSorry for the delay in refutation. Ron and I were at a KKK rally raping young, crippled Jewish girls. Let me just take a draught of this Kool-Aid... ::slurp:: Ah, refreshing! Now we can get started.

All right, that was good. :killingme:

QuoteGranted, we all write from our experience and Ron is no exception, but you realize that nothing that you or John has quoted says that Ron played in a dysfunctional Vampire game with a hell GM in the early 90s, right?

Which is my point. You're reading into Ron's stuff. And you're spending one hell of a lot of time dwelling on his ravings. Perhaps too much time given your history at the Forge and your feelings about Ron and his ideas. It's kind of creepy, man.

For me, it's a kind of Occam's Razor, why spend your time raving about it, if it's not the reason? Going beyond that it taints his theories because they come from a very negative assumption about not just Storyteller, but any playstyle he just doesn't like. All well and good, I guess, to have your own opinion, but when it's as wild as trying to equate some forms of play with brain damage, missing limbs, or child molestation, it deserves to catch heat.

QuoteI only skimmed those posts during that particular kerfufflee, but what's interesting to me is how similar Ron's remarks seem to be to our not-so-illustrious host's. Sounds like a lot of swine-inspired rants to me. But what do I know? Ron's saying that Vampire and other "storytelling" games didn't facilitate the creation of group-based narrative fiction as they were written. The narrative fiction was injected into those trad designs via either strict adherence to metagame or by the players improvising.

I agree. As a person who regularly reads Pundit, I see it as two people having the same problem, and reaching the exact opposite conclusions as to how to solve it. Pundit can be a prick about his ideas as much as RE, and it should be noted that no one here is afraid to disagree with them.

I think the key difference is that Pundit isn't trailed by hordes of folk treating his every word as golden.  That and Pundit doesn't close down threads when they move off topics that interest him.

I mean, Pundit has called me swine on at least two occasions I think and we have crossed swords a few times, but I don't feel at all unwelcome and I think I am still able to contribute to the site.  On the Forge I used to find that threads got declared done and closed all too often and that if one disagreed with Ron he might well be fine about that but acolytes would descend and make the whole thing just to painful to be worth bothering with.

Pundit may call me names, but he's cool with me doing the same back.  That's important and is part of why I rather like it here.

Quote from: BalbinusI think the key difference is that Pundit isn't trailed by hordes of folk treating his every word as golden.  That and Pundit doesn't close down threads when they move off topics that interest him.

I mean, Pundit has called me swine on at least two occasions I think and we have crossed swords a few times, but I don't feel at all unwelcome and I think I am still able to contribute to the site.  On the Forge I used to find that threads got declared done and closed all too often and that if one disagreed with Ron he might well be fine about that but acolytes would descend and make the whole thing just to painful to be worth bothering with.

Pundit may call me names, but he's cool with me doing the same back.  That's important and is part of why I rather like it here.

Nicely said, and a core element of why I also enjoy this site.

Quote from: BalbinusI think the key difference is that Pundit isn't trailed by hordes of folk treating his every word as golden.  That and Pundit doesn't close down threads when they move off topics that interest him.

....

:ditto:

Quote from: BalbinusI think the key difference is that Pundit isn't trailed by hordes of folk treating his every word as golden.  That and Pundit doesn't close down threads when they move off topics that interest him.

I mean, Pundit has called me swine on at least two occasions I think and we have crossed swords a few times, but I don't feel at all unwelcome and I think I am still able to contribute to the site.  On the Forge I used to find that threads got declared done and closed all too often and that if one disagreed with Ron he might well be fine about that but acolytes would descend and make the whole thing just to painful to be worth bothering with.

Pundit may call me names, but he's cool with me doing the same back.  That's important and is part of why I rather like it here.

To be fair, I should note that although I don't post there I am rather glad the Forge exists.  Some cool games have come out of it and it does something that nowhere else does, which is also cool.

The fact I choose not to post there does not mean I think it shouldn't be there at all.  A thing can have value, even if not to me directly.

Quote from: BalbinusTo be fair, I should note that although I don't post there I am rather glad the Forge exists.

If it was an actual physical location where a meteor or the like could take them all out in strike I'd be happy too.

As it is, I'll be glad when it's gone.

Quote from: lukePS Oh, and ask and you shall receive, Ron posted a series of AP posts about his D&D game that he played with his neighbors last spring. Oh look, and he had fun, too.

I give him full props for running the game that his players wanted to play, but please don't try to tell me that his running D&D means that he doesn't loath the system, I think his comments even in that thread (first page at least) don't cover such a bet.

On the plus side, his players sounded like they had fun in the first session at least, and that Edwards did as well, no game can (imho) hope for more then that.

Upon reflection, I made a huge mistake with the Element articles. I made them too clear and concise. Everyone understood them. There was nothing to talk about, no fuzzy vision of greatness to form a cult around.

And this is the result.

A thread with my own name on it, titled on my own gaming theories, and it turns into another Edwards thread because that's all there is to talk about.

Sigh.

Quote from: BalbinusOn the Forge I used to find that threads got declared done and closed all too often and that if one disagreed with Ron he might well be fine about that but acolytes would descend and make the whole thing just to painful to be worth bothering with.

  I noted when you brought up the whole brain-damage thing on RPGnet this also happened in pretty short order.  One poster in particular whose name completely escapes me at the moment (though does it start with an M) essentially acts as Ron's self-appointed enforcer, hagiographer and First Apologist.

  Nowhere was this more evident than when he reacted to your well-founded criticisms of Ron's turn of phrase by creating a thread that started from the assumption that when Ron said something massively insulting and ignorant, he in fact meant something completely different and far more reasonable.

  That whole thing was ridiculous though.  Ron makes a sweeping statement (probably for rhetorical effect), gets called on it, and then refuses to back down and apologise when it's pointed out to him that he's talking out of his arse.  It's the type of behaviour that makes me wonder how he manages in his day job as an academic (though to be fair, it's not a particularly good university).

Quote from: gleichmanUpon reflection, I made a huge mistake with the Element articles. I made them too clear and concise. Everyone understood them. There was nothing to talk about, no fuzzy vision of greatness to form a cult around.

And this is the result.

A thread with my own name on it, titled on my own gaming theories, and it turns into another Edwards thread because that's all there is to talk about.

Sigh.

You're right, sorry.

The thing is, your articles are useful, they are clear and because they are clear there is relatively little to say.  I agree with them and they have given me quite a lot to think about, but they don't need expanding because they are complete on the topics they speak to.

Anyway though, I shall shut up about him on this thread.

Quote from: Mr. AnalyticalThat whole thing was ridiculous though.  Ron makes a sweeping statement (probably for rhetorical effect

Ron specifically denied in the orginal post itself that it was for rhetorical effect.

Quote from: gleichmanIf it was an actual physical location where a meteor or the like could take them all out in strike I'd be happy too.

As it is, I'll be glad when it's gone.

Yes, they should be wiped out. They are the cause of all of our problems. The way they cluster in their ghettos. Exterminated, all of them, then the world would be better off.

Come here, you've got a little lint on your brown shirt. Let me dust it off.



Let's look at the scoreboard of sin:
The Pundit: Asshole, frothy rants, no closings, no bannings, no fans, one unpublished rpg, appears to hide behind screen name.

Ron: Asshole, kind of crazy sometimes, closings, no bannings, crazy fans, 3 excellent games (plus 3 supplements) in 7 years with another one on the way, one influential website on which he slavishly works to help people produce their roleplaying games, tries to get internet people to talk to each other using their real names.



Cnath.rm,
Thank you very much for your delusional, uninformed thoughts. Unlike yourself, I read the postings. Ron had a great time playing the game. Why can't you [all] accept that Ron is a fucking human being with his own idiosyncracies? He's not the devil or a saint. He's just a fellah with some ideas. The anti-Ron obession is CREEEEPY!

and lest I be seen as a creepy Ron-Lover, I'm just going to drop it. Whatevs.
-Luke