There's Theatrix. I'd detail it but the book is packed away and I haven't thought about it for a long time.

Quote from: One Horse Town;289104Sounds interesting. Are you going for the full-on gonzo stuff or just using it as inspiration?

Well I think because it's my group it will surely head into gonzo territory or at least lick the edges. I'm really attracted to the whole mythology (at least the vague subtle hints) of the series, so I think it would be more of a reimagining of the TV show. I'm thinking of starting of where the series ended (prepare yourself for some old school pretentious wank) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWkv2wAIlrg&feature=related

With the pcs playing various "pairs of elements" trying to escape the "room" only to discover that something is seriously wrong with Time.

And just for the sake of completeness here's a peice of music that I listen to when sporadically planning for this campaign. (The choice of music always changes, but this particular one has remained for some time)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3097unnY95g

See what happens when you ask about my games, OHT.

Sorry, again, Bill for this little sidetrek.

Regards,
David R

Quote from: Machinegun Blue;289133There's Theatrix. I'd detail it but the book is packed away and I haven't thought about it for a long time.

I think they also had a 'dice optional' thing going on.  It's been a long time for me as well.  Bought it when the game on the release, read it but never ran it.  If I still had my copy I would dig it out and give a read through.

Bill...you want I should bring da ting to da place on dat day?*



* For those of you not from Chicago or New Jersey, in this instance the translation would be something like "Would you like me to bring the Amber rule book to Games Plus on Game Day?"

Since card-based systems are apparently fair game, I might as well throw in some details about that Nine Worlds, mentioned earlier.

The PCs are defined by two Virtues (Arete which presents their natural excellence and faith in the laws of the universe, and Hubris which represents their supernatural might and faith in themselves), four Urges (corresponding to creation, destruction, preservation and transformation, respectively), and up to nine Muses (personal goals which inspire their adventures).

The central question in the game is "Are you content to live in a world made by someone else or will you make it your own instead?" and that's directly reflected by the mechanics. At the beginning of any conflict, the players must first decide whether they're trying to solve the situation through purely human effort or reality-altering god-defying magical powers: Arete or Hubris, in other words. After choosing one Virtue, they draw a number of cards equal to its rating. They then check their Muses to see if any of them apply to the current situation, and may draw more cards according to those ratings as well.

Next, the players choose one applicable Urge, depending on what they are trying to accomplish. For instance, attempting to skewer an opponent in a swordfight is a fairly clear example of both the Arete Virtue and the Chaos Urge, the "destructive" stat. Each Urge corresponds to a specific suit of cards, which in the case of Chaos would be spades, and only cards from this one suit can be played during a single turn.

A player's "Fate" score for the turn equals the base rating of the Urge plus the number of cards played, and the highest Fate wins the conflict, after which the victors narrate the outcome and decide whether they want to press on for another turn and continue the same conflict instead of moving on. It's worth noting that while victory in itself depends entirely on this score, it doesn't guarantee mechanical effects: for that you need to spend "Points" earned for each ace, joker or face card played on the table. So while increasing your Urges to ridiculous heights might bring an automatic success, it wouldn't last for long. You just can't declare someone dead without, say, reducing his Arete to zero through Chaos Points (that is, Points earned by using Chaos and playing spades). Once a Virtue does fall to zero, though, the character is about to die and only sacrificing one of the Muses, the character's reasons to live, can save him. If there are no more Muses left, the character dies and faces judgment in the Underworld. Die because of losing all your Arete, and you face oblivion as the Furies tear your soul apart. The gods really hate an excess of Hubris.

Victorious players who gained cards from their Muses for the conflict put down a little mark next to the Muse in question, showing whether they won through Arete or Hubris. Once that Muse is resolved (when the PC either accomplishes the goal or it becomes impossible in some way), the player gains its current rating's worth in points of either Valor or Pride, depending on which Virtue the character favoured while pursuing the goal. Both essentially act as XP, but they are spent in different ways: Valor increases stats directly, while Pride can be invested into "Talismans," which is the general term for all artifacts, allies or vehicles which the player then controls directly as separate characters in their own right.

There are some other quirks to the system as well, naturally enough, but that's the basics of how the resolution works.

Quote from: flyingmice;289127There's a diceless, randomless T-R Subsystem for StarCluster called StarKarma. It uses skill comparison plus resource (called chits) allocation. I haven't yet used it in any of my published games, and I need to fiddle with the number of chits and refresh rate. It probably should vary by game and/or group, so I need to set up guidelines rather than something rigid.

-clash

First Brett and now your game. I must be getting old.

Thanks Clash.

Grimgent, so, I feel I am missing something. Nob seems like a resource management game but the mechanics of the roll-over have me stumped. Is it a case of the GM states that difficulty is X and (via the bidding rules you mention) they either pay or not? So, it would go like Attribute:4...
GM: The difficulty is 8!
Player: Fine, I pay 4.

I must be missing something...sorry.

Thanks Grimgent.

David, not to worry. A derail every now and then keeps the thread interesting. Also, honestly, rules aren't my bag either. This the "Base Mechanics" threads.

Thanks David.

Quote from: HinterWelt;289068So, there is a bidding of points that then determines ranks in Attributes? I am not sure I am following you here.

Wow, I did not follow that at all. You seem to be speaking English...

Yes, most games start with 100 points to spend. The GM holds an Attribute Auction, perhaps (if he is nice), reminding the players that the points are also used to buy Powers, Artifacts, Allies, Good Stuff and other such nonsense (really not nonsense).

The players set a silent first bid, which is their stat, unless they choose to bid in the auction. One can choose 'no bid', which gives them the option of Amber Rank (no points), Chaos Rank (they now have a serious weakness in comparison to others, and ten points to spend elsewhere, hence the '-10'), Human Rank is also an option (and damn near suicidal, at '-25').

If you bid into the auction, you always bid above the last highest number. By the time the 1st Rank is 'Sold', the rest of the Ranks are established based on the highest number of points the Players bid. This means a 1st Rank may have cost Bill 59 points, while my 1st Rank in Strength only cost me 22. It's all relative.

Quote from: HinterWelt;289068Are you talking about character creation?

Yes. If you forego Ranks, you simply assign points out of your 100 points. At that point, superiority in Attributes is based on the amount of points you ended up spending: "I have a 15 in Psyche, but I have a Warfare of 50!"

Quote from: HinterWelt;289068O.k. Now this I suspect is the case with many diceless games. I have no proof but it would seem to follow that a GM would have a great deal of influence over the flow and feel of a game without randomizers.

Yup.

Quote from: HinterWelt;289068Again, I have found this to be so with the diceless games I have played.

Yup.

Quote from: HinterWelt;289068Take your time.

Thanks!

The other Diceless Game are the rules for John Wick's Houses of the Blooded LIVE rules, which use your HotBlooded usual character creation but allows you to play Diceless. I will elaborate if folks are interested, only because LARPs aren't Tabletop RPGs.

Quote from: James J Skach;289154Bill...you want I should bring da ting to da place on dat day?*



* For those of you not from Chicago or New Jersey, in this instance the translation would be something like "Would you like me to bring the Amber rule book to Games Plus on Game Day?"

Sure! Will you be attending good sir?*

Chicago Translation: Yo, you gonna be dere or wat?

Quote from: peteramthor;289152I think they also had a 'dice optional' thing going on.  It's been a long time for me as well.  Bought it when the game on the release, read it but never ran it.  If I still had my copy I would dig it out and give a read through.

Yeah but the dice option was mostly a side note. I think it was based on ten siders.

I did run a short campaign with it about ten years ago. I think it went pretty well. The players took a while to wrap their heads around the diceless thing. I remember being on my toes a lot as GM. One my more challenging GM experiences.

I'd say that the biggest thing worth mentioning about the game is that players are given some authority over the GM when it comes to whatever their character is specialized in.

Quote from: HinterWelt;289158Grimgent, so, I feel I am missing something. Nob seems like a resource management game but the mechanics of the roll-over have me stumped. Is it a case of the GM states that difficulty is X and (via the bidding rules you mention) they either pay or not? So, it would go like Attribute:4...
GM: The difficulty is 8!
Player: Fine, I pay 4.

I must be missing something...sorry.

The actual rules in the book specify what each rank of every attribute can achieve: unless some unpredictable factor (like a god with a grudge) comes into play, you always know what your character should be capable of. For just a few examples... Aspect 4? I'm a match for any mortal swordsman (or a mortal anything, more accurately, since Aspect 4 represents the absolute peak of human potential in every respect). Aspect 6? I can run at the speed of sound. Aspect 8? I can hurl Mount Everest to the orbit. There might be complications that your character isn't aware of (a flimsy wooden door turns out to have steel reinforcements when you try to kick it in, for instance) and GM has some leeway based on just how difficult he believes some action to be, but determining that difficulty level is no more arbitrary than in any dice-based game and considerably less so than in many of them.

Quote from: David R;289139See what happens when you ask about my games, OHT.

Regards,
David R

Yeah, great stuff comes out.

Quote from: GrimGent;289164The actual rules in the book specify what each rank of every attribute can achieve: unless some unpredictable factor (like a god with a grudge) comes into play, you always know what your character should be capable of. For just a few examples... Aspect 4? I'm a match for any mortal swordsman (or a mortal anything, more accurately, since Aspect 4 represents the absolute peak of human potential in every respect). Aspect 6? I can run at the speed of sound. Aspect 8? I can hurl Mount Everest to the orbit. There might be complications that your character isn't aware of (a flimsy wooden door turns out to have steel reinforcements when you try to kick it in, for instance) and GM has some leeway based on just how difficult he believes some action to be, but determining that difficulty level is no more arbitrary than in any dice-based game and considerably less so than in many of them.

See, it seems to me though, that much of the suspense would be taken out. I pay four is fixed. I know I will succeed, right? Now don't get me wrong, this is a preference I have that makes resource games less appealing to me. In other words, no fault of Nobilis, just my preferences getting in the way.

Thanks

Quote from: HinterWelt;289168See, it seems to me though, that much of the suspense would be taken out. I pay four is fixed. I know I will succeed, right? Now don't get me wrong, this is a preference I have that makes resource games less appealing to me. In other words, no fault of Nobilis, just my preferences getting in the way.

It's all part of the conceit that Nobles are perfected beings who operate in absolute terms. They can walk down an icy street and decide that they will never slip... and if they then do fall down, something has gone wrong with the very fabric of the universe. They have no doubts about what they can do, only about whether it's the smart or moral thing to do, especially when they may have to reserve their strength for later struggles. (After the PCs ran into an Excrucian Deceiver in my first campaign, one player just stopped spending MPs on anything, just in case, even though I tried to explain that there'd be opportunities to regain the points later.)

I had a skill system for Amber that was much like Clash's StarCluster example.
You pull some of your points into a a skill pool and write out a list of the stuff your Amberite knows how to do (as Amberites are hundreds of years old and can visit any genre of world the lists tended to be long and I deliberatley avoided lists of skills to pick from). The proces sof fleshing out your character's background and what sort of things they have done is part of the amber set up anyway this just formalised it and the cost of a skill was very low in relation to a point of warfare or A point in Trump (1 point of warfare = 250 skill points with 50 being as good at painting as Da vinci).  

Anyway I digress the mechanic says "this task is x hard to do" if you have more than x points in that skill you succeed; a lot more and you succeed faster or you vastly suceed. The key to Amber though is competition. So having 53 in Fly helicopter means you can do pretty much whatever you like with a helicopter the actual score only matters when you are in a hellicopter gunship chase with a guy with 46 fly helicopter. This is true of all Amberite skill resolutions.
Before you dismiss this as dull in actuallity its more realistic than a % system. If you have 80% in carpentry in a medieval game and the initial starting score is say 20% and you have spent lots of points on the skill you should rightly be regarded as a master carpenter. However in a simple skill sytem you will fail to built a mug tree 20% of the time. This is not a true simulation of the real world and a threshold type level is a truer reflection.

I like the idea of chits. You add to your skill level. Its a bit gamey but it would add tension. Say you ahev a pool of 20 chits. You have 4 skill in computers. You have to crack into a computer system. The cursor blinks blindly at you. Okay I will spend 2 chits...(toal skill level of 6) you spend a few minutes trying to hack in you get as far as a retinal authentication screen but can't seem to bypass it. Damn ... okay we have to get into this machine ... I will try a gain this time with 5 chits (for a skill level of 9) okay this time you crash the machine down to its shell and isolate the security module you restart the system and bingo you are in...
I think this would be good, tense and very good in combat situations where you would be trying to bluff your opponent to run out their chit pool so you coudl finish them off. Clash is right about pool refresh rates being key though. Would work well in a computer game where you just gained a chit every minute of elapsed time or something but harder to do with p'n'p.

I would say the basic diceless (read randomless) mechanics are -

i) Comparative - 2 parties compare a score that may or may not be boosted by an additional value either tactical or from a pool of resources - Amber is in this category with tactical choices giving some wiggle room to the actual numbers
ii) Threshold - there is a score in a skill or attribute you need to exceed to complete a task
iii) Theatrical - problematic for most players. GM fiat and story drama determine the outcome of events
iv) Tactical - players have a range of tactical options they can deploy. Events are determined by comparison of tactical choices cross referenced. In effect this is like a big game of Scissors/Paper/Stone you can regard it as random but you are in effect making choices. There are lots of variants on this in non RPG games such as auctions where the lot goes to the lowest unique bid or whatever. All can be adjusted for RPGs. You can also limit the range of tactical options based on character attributes.

Hi Jibbajabba! Welcome back!

That sounds like a great way to introduce skills to Amber. Did you ever write it up?

I also like your analysis of the various basic diceless mechanics. Thanks!

-clash