I used to play a ton of stuff, not so much lately.  In the last 2 years, nothing at all.  In the 2-3 years before that, a couple of games of OCS Tunisia, and a half-finished game of Empires in Arms.  I've still got a boatload of OCS games and some TCS and a few other select games (Empires in Arms, f'rex)...I'm moving to Seattle soon and I have to sort through my games this weekend and decide what to keep and what to ebay.  I already gave away my extensive Europa collection when I sold my house and moved into an apartment.

I´m a World in Flames, Empires in Arms, Imperium Romanum II strategic person. These are games!

I never understood the appeal of single battle gaming(, until BattleLore). Although I´m inclined to look into some of them as a research tool for my 1453-1648 campaign.

Battle Lore, while played often at my place, is not a wargame. It has enough hooks for exploration of historical themes, though. Being easyer to set up and find players for, it´s my choice for writing historical scenarios for. The read about a battle, write scenario, play it several times circle is way better and rewarding, than searching out some fiddly quad game from 1957 for $1000, only to find that nobody wants to play it.
My next purchase will definitely be Commands & Colours Ancients

Though I cut my teeth on Sniper! and some other sqad level games, we couldn´t wrap our heads around the orange binder (ASL) one  of my gaming buddies bought.

What purpose does ASL have?
What is it trying to accomplish?

Quote from: SettembriniI´m a World in Flames, Empires in Arms, Imperium Romanum II strategic person. These are games!

You know how privileged you are?

If it wasn't fantasy-themed, most of my friends wouldn't play it. That did give us some inspired hours with Divine Right, Magic Realm and such, BUT...

QuoteThe read about a battle, write scenario, play it several times circle is way better and rewarding, than searching out some fiddly quad game from 1957 for $1000, only to find that nobody wants to play it.

Yes yes, very reasonable, whatever. But look at this--it's the pretty:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/911

*swoon*

I'm telling you, I'm getting SO BORED with RPG talk, especially 4E related (talk, mind you, not the actual games), I have half a mind of becoming a wargamer in my olden days.

My problem:
There´s a certain mindset that is needed for ongoing wargames, like EiA or WiF. As I´m the best player around here, it´s a bit hard to actually encounter a challenge (or to keep monster games from beng cancelled by some wussy who have a low tolerance for frustration).
I play RPGs more and more, because of their non-zero-sum nature. It´s way easier to get players excited about a game were they can work together.

I think this part of the fundamental "superiority" of RPGs over Wargames, broader player base.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityYou know how privileged you are?

If it wasn't fantasy-themed, most of my friends wouldn't play it. That did give us some inspired hours with Divine Right, Magic Realm and such, BUT...



Yes yes, very reasonable, whatever. But look at this--it's the pretty:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/911

*swoon*

I'm telling you, I'm getting SO BORED with RPG talk, especially 4E related (talk, mind you, not the actual games), I have half a mind of becoming a wargamer in my olden days.

Empires of the MA would actually a very easy sell for the people I know. It´s more a boardgame than a wargame in my book.

RPG talk is:
poisoned by the Forgers
poisoned by the Fetishists
poisoned by the huge amount of people talking about them, without understanding them fully (which actually incorporates the two points before this one)

So yes, RPG talk is boring and inane most of the time. Wouldn´t it be for my self-adopted mission for educating people, I could stop it without losing anything. Still, my anger sometimes overrides my educative qualities. Sort of a catch-22. Educating the ignorant and oblivious is motivated by anger, but the anger gets in the way of reaching people.
Good thing I´m not a teacher in RL.

Quote from: SettembriniWouldn´t it be for my self-adopted mission for educating people, I could stop it without losing anything. Still, my anger sometimes overrides my educative qualities. Sort of a catch-22. Educating the ignorant and oblivious is motivated by anger, but the anger gets in the way of reaching people.
Good thing I´m not a teacher in RL.

Ah now that one's easy. To be a great teacher all you need to do is a) focus on the positive only--don't waste your time attacking others, state your own case; b) have smarter things to say about your field than everybody else; c) do not ever look down on the kids, it's not THEIR fault they know nothing, they're here to learn; d) let THEM entertain YOU; e) stiff upper lip.

That simple!

The problem is, that I´m assuming online participants are adults.
And I don´t have patience with adults, if I take them seriously. But who can take the likes of TonyLB seriously? Still, you don´t know beforehand who is thinking and who´s a bozo. The process of finding out is tedious and I see less and less value in it.

Now in RL, the power and knowledge distribution is clear. That makes it way easier in my experience, even when educating adults. They came to learn from me (or I from them), so there is none of that online bullshit of "it´s just your opinion, everybody´s opinion is sacred".

EDIT: Back to Wargaming. Explain ASL to me, what´s it´s purpose?

Quote from: SettembriniEDIT: Back to Wargaming. Explain ASL to me, what´s it´s purpose?

I'm hardly qualified to wax about the subject, but ASL is a consolidation of the basic SL game plus its massive "gamettes," which expanded but also partly contradicted the SL rules and each other, into a single comprehensive unholy tome. As if 3E had been 2E plus every single kit and options book rolled into one.

But I'm sure you know that, so... is there an underlying point here?

Quote from: Pierce InverarityYou know, not those with the minis in spiky armor. Those with the cardboard counters and the stacking rules thereof.

It appears I shall soon possess a copy of Squad Leader. Never played it, but I've read up on it and am positively psyched.

Which wargames, or counter-based boardgames broadly conceived (Divine Right qualifies, ditto Magic Realm, Dragonhunt, Wizard's Quest...), did you / do you enjoy most and why?

Played many, haven't played one for awhile but my son is getting to the age where it will happen.  He already wants to the rules are a bit beyond him at the moment.  Looking to play more.

Squad Leader was one I first got serious about.  Beware "open ground" comrade.  And Russian off-board artillary just s*cks, because the radios s*uck.

Blitzkreig was maybe the first I played.  Titan is one of my current favorites along with Britannia (probably my favorite overall) and Black Beard.  Only Britannia lends itself well to two-player play.  BattleFleet Mars is also a great two player game, I could go on and on as I remember more.

Quote from: Pierce InverarityI'm hardly qualified to wax about the subject, but ASL is a consolidation of the basic SL game plus its massive "gamettes," which expanded but also partly contradicted the SL rules and each other, into a single comprehensive unholy tome. As if 3E had been 2E plus every single kit and options book rolled into one.

But I'm sure you know that, so... is there an underlying point here?

What is the purpose of the game itself?
Why should I go to the lengths of ASL-Rulopedantry?
What do I get in return?

Quote from: SettembriniWhat is the purpose of the game itself?
Why should I go to the lengths of ASL-Rulopedantry?
What do I get in return?

If you've seen the rules they are highly specific and ASL I believe includes erratta.  You can certainly get the gamettes and just choose which version to use.  You don't even need the gamettes but they give you more nations, counters, and options.  The refined rules may also provide greater simulation.
Squad Leader by itself is a very playable game, played many a game.  Oh I wanted the gamettes, just could never afford them.

The purpose of the game itself?  You mean why did they make ASL?  To consolidate and update the game.
Do you mean the purpsoe of Squad Leader?  It is small unit tactics, to answer the question how well would you have done as a small unit leader.  Most games are played as scenarios, with points for certain acheivements, the number of points determine victory level.

So ypu play prepackaged scenarios to learn how you would have fared as a Squad Leader in WWII?
Is it that?

And the realism-bloat is the method to lend credibility to the outcome , i.e. your player skill, or even your squad leader skill?

EDIT:

My point is also: why aren´t they playing a historical tabletop? Why aren´t there Minis for ASL?

Quote from: SettembriniSo ypu play prepackaged scenarios to learn how you would have fared as a Squad Leader in WWII?
Is it that?

And the realism-bloat is the method to lend credibility to the outcome , i.e. your player skill, or even your squad leader skill?

EDIT:

My point is also: why aren´t they playing a historical tabletop? Why aren´t there Minis for ASL?

From your questions I take it you haven't played a Squad Leader game nor come from hex and counter wargaming?

Squad Leader is a historical table-top game and it does have "minis".  
The use of hexs is to regulate movement and remove the need for a ruler and all the fighting that can cause.  Unlike squares the distance between hexes is the same in any direction, hence the hex and not square grid.  
It does have minis, the counters.  Minis being representational pieces for units.  Counters are a much cheaper alternative for providing large numbers of units and allowing for the scale of squad leader.  Each "mini" representing a squad (13 men in the US in WWII).  The game is about the tactics not the playing pieces.

When it comes to historical accuracy, Squad Leader and others of it's ilk go much further than most of their lead mini predecessors or children.  They are of the military war game lineage, that is, the little numbers on the counters are based on actual data of squad effectiveness, equipment reliability etc.  The "test" of these systems has always been given actual battles, employing the actual tactics used, the outcomes on average are the same.   This data is actually available form the US Army.  The work of Dupuy in "Understanding War" is a great example what they are after.  

There is a lso a reason it's called Squad Leader, leaders are very important.

The scenarios come with the game, 44 IIRC came with Squad Leader and they are laid out so you can run a campaign that takes you from 1940 to 1945.  Some of these are modeled on actual battles.  They are also laid out from using few rules in the first to adding in more units and rules by the end.  The game also gives you a point value for each unit so you can design your own scenarios and gives you examples of victory conditions for various levels of force imbalance.

It would be nice to think Squad Leader can give you an idea of how you would have fared as a WWII squad leader, but I thnk most wargamers would caution not to take it too far.  For what it does and can do, it gives a good feel for squad level tactics and the relative strengths and weakness of actual WWII units.

Oddly, Squad Leader was the first RPG I played.  Yes we made up rules for our leaders to get better as we progressed from scenario to scenario (+1 to +2 etc.) and would empathize with and curse said same leaders when they rallied broken troops or fired a LMG to deadly effect.

I love love love SL, but I won't vouch for its realism, really.  The game affords you much more control and knowledge of the battlefield than historically possible.  But the system has a wealth of detail (that contributes to a perception of realism) that facilitates choices for players: do you Defensive Fire on that advancing stack?  If you do, you might hurt it, but you might roll a Cower result.  Double-time those guys on your left flank to reach the objective a bit faster?  Better watch your enemy's LOS (and hope he doesn't have any hidden forces) and remember that they'll be CX (exhausted) for a turn.  What type of ammo does your Sherman fire to take out that Panther?  etc.

The rules bring your player skill to the fore, definitely.  The whole system is designed "for effect," that is, not to replicate history, but to give the player the "feel" of fighting out a battle at this level.  The original SL is the best example of design for effect produced, and it generates a level tension beyond most games I've played, even other tactical games on the same scale.

Interestingly, the system started out as a miniatures ruleset, but AH wanted a boardgame.  John Hill made 1" = 1 hex and went from there.

ASL does have miniatures, or did at one point.  The Deluxe ASL modules featured huge hexes sized for 1/285 minis.  Many folks use ASL as a tabletop game, as well.

Xanther, the game's scenarios are not set up as a campaign, and John Hill admitted to "eyeballing" the numbers in the system to gain effect rather than historical accuracy (you want its contemporary Tobruk by Hal Hock for precision data...that's a great game, too, but for different reasons).  Additionally, I think you haven't read Sett's posts to this thread and many others.  He's quite a seasoned wargamer from what I can see.

Quote from: KenHRI love love love SL, but I won't vouch for its realism, really.  The game affords you much more control and knowledge of the battlefield than historically possible.  ...

Agreed.  Fog of war and command and control is a hard thing to do and not something I think SL was intended to do but there were some fog of war rules for hidden units.
 

QuoteThe rules bring your player skill to the fore, definitely.  The whole system is designed "for effect," that is, not to replicate history, but to give the player the "feel" of fighting out a battle at this level.  The original SL is the best example of design for effect produced, and it generates a level tension beyond most games I've played, even other tactical games on the same scale.

Exactly, but I think the test of such games is given historical set ups the results are not too far out of line with what happened, at an abstract level.

QuoteInterestingly, the system started out as a miniatures ruleset, but AH wanted a boardgame.  John Hill made 1" = 1 hex and went from there.

Interesting, good decision by AH, could never have afforded the miniatures,

QuoteXanther, the game's scenarios are not set up as a campaign, and John Hill admitted to "eyeballing" the numbers in the system to gain effect rather than historical accuracy (you want its contemporary Tobruk by Hal Hock for precision data...that's a great game, too, but for different reasons).  Additionally, I think you haven't read Sett's posts to this thread and many others.  He's quite a seasoned wargamer from what I can see.

I thought the scenarios were in chronological order, but going purley from memory here.  I do recall we set them up as a campaign, not a campaign in the sense that units carried over from one scenario to the next but keeping track of victory points.

My recollection is John's "eyeballing" comments were to counter criticisms about various guns made by the serious hard-core statistics guys.  Really where can you get statistics for the American Hero unit?  I guess I'm confusing game company desire, various games, and my own wishful thinking with facts.  

Nevertheless pretty good "eyballing" I'd say.  Maybe it comes out of the design for "effect" which in a way is just what Dupuy did, start with the effect/outcome and work backwards to combat value, although the goal is eventually to work forward.

Tobruk, the naval combat and base of operation Pacific theater game?  Man I'd forgotten about that one, a great game.



Sorry Sett, I haven't read many of your posts or threads.  I'd assumed the question on why not minis and historical table-top was coming from seeing SL as incompatible with the use of minaitures or a hexless table-top.  I also just wrongly assumed every wargamer knows of and/or played SL, it just seemed to be the game (besides Panzerblitz) for so long.  No insult meant.  I apologize for making those assumptions and being defensive.

I certainly will agree with you on the realism-bloat, and I'd say rule-bloat.  I love SL but the rules detail and conditional rules made it quite an effort to play beyond infantry.  But what did I know back then, we just thought that's the way it was done so we memorized the 6 point font books so the game moved along.