Setting: I'm flexible. I can deal with future, fantasy, or modern. Generic is also ok with me as I don't make completely generic abilities though i get the feeling most people will want something more focused.

Core Mechanic: D20 is my favorite because of its simplicity and linearity. I'd go for Dice Pool otherwise though bell curves are a bit harder for me to wrap my linear geared mind around though it is far from imposible. Dice pools are also easier to do for "gritty" games because it obfuscates the math enough where you can do a lot of things to the math and dice loadouts without damaging the your range.

For dice pools the math is tricky and I think most designs that use them  basically ignore it and just create mechanics as a matter of  convenience. I'm not sure how you'd go about exploiting the obfuscation,  though the idea is interesting. Normally I find them good for 'how much'  questions (like damage) more than 'what if' questions (do I hit?).

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;566179For dice pools the math is tricky and I think most designs that use them  basically ignore it and just create mechanics as a matter of  convenience. I'm not sure how you'd go about exploiting the obfuscation,  though the idea is interesting. Normally I find them good for 'how much'  questions (like damage) more than 'what if' questions (do I hit?).

Exploiting it is super easy. Most people don't even understand how the math works (I didn't and am still blurry over the subject but I can do a personal refresher course to handle it). The fact of the matter is because most people don't know how the math is "supposed" to work you can write a bunch of minor abilities that give you different kinds of bonuses and give them away for free without damaging your system at all. Basically I'm saying that its a lot sturdier than linear dice. It gives the "feel" of having a unique, highly customizable character without breaking your system in half. Also people like rolling more dice believe it or not.

Quote from: MGuy;566172D100 is too wide for my tastes. It can be done and leaves a lot fo room for minor throw away abilities that give youa  minor bonus between them. D20 is a bit harder on the math (5% per point instead of direct 1%) but its still easy to do the math on. D10 (when not a Dice Pool) makes the room for maneuvering a bit too small unless there are no levels and this is a down and dirty game. It does indeed put a lot of weight on what would otherwise be more minor bonuses but that means things have to be a lot tighter because of the smaller range.

I am not a fan of going d20 for two basic reasons. The first, and probably my primary reason, is i dont think the world really needs another d20 system at this point. I would just find it hard to get behind a mechanic like that with any ethusiasm unless it was something like an OSR game. My second reason is I really would prefer a smaller range. D10 provides a much tighter range which I see as a huge plus here. It keeps the math a lot more contained. Something about rolling d20 +17 just seems messy to me. Sure you have to be careful where the numbers come from but it is quite manageable. I also really like skill and talent having an equal or greater impact than randomness. But BSJ can make the final call. If d20 I would definitely suggest not doing d20 + number but shift to roll under a rating on the d20 ( a bit like attribute rolls and nwps in ad&d). To me that is a lot smoother than 3e style d20.

Quote from: BedrockBrendan;566184I am not a fan of going d20 for two basic reasons. The first, and probably my primary reason, is i dont think the world really needs another d20 system at this point. I would just find it hard to get behind a mechanic like that with any ethusiasm unless it was something like an OSR game. My second reason is I really would prefer a smaller range. D10 provides a much tighter range which I see as a huge plus here. It keeps the math a lot more contained. Something about rolling d20 +17 just seems messy to me. Sure you have to be careful where the numbers come from but it is quite manageable. I also really like skill and talent having an equal or greater impact than randomness. But BSJ can make the final call. If d20 I would definitely suggest not doing d20 + number but shift to roll under a rating on the d20 ( a bit like attribute rolls and nwps in ad&d). To me that is a lot smoother than 3e style d20.

I can certainly agree with you on the d20 bloat but i think that just goes to show how fleible the desiign prospects of d20 are. Its simple, lineare, and the range is wide enough to play with. I also do not have a problem with reduced randomness. I'd feel  uncomfortable with the smaller range of the d10 because it doesn't leave a lot of room for playing around but that can be avoided by focusing onn hhaving a larger list of abilities and provides more reason to not make +1 or +2 abilities while at the same time giving those abilities a helluva lot more meaning. however, if we do go d20 I staunchly am against rolling under. Rolling under is a bit more complicated than rolling over and there is no solid real benefits to rolling under instead of rolling over.

Quote from: MGuy;566186I . however, if we do go d20 I staunchly am against rolling under. Rolling under is a bit more complicated than rolling over and there is no solid real benefits to rolling under instead of rolling over.

this can easily be reversed. I just said roll under because it is easier on the character creatin end. But you can invert the formula. All skills start at 20. From that you deduct attribute + skill rank. So if I have a 5 in Dex and take 5 points in climb, my score is 10 (20- 5 -5 =10) and I have to roll ten or over to succeed on a climb roll. I just find this a much more contained system than the d20 approach of adding a potentially large modifier.

Have to see what other people say also and unfortunately they're probably spread out across multiple time zones.

As an idea to add more detail to the d10 you could have say percentile-rated abilities but only add the 10s place to rolls, with the 1s place being rolled against if the target number is rolled exactly, or in order to break ties...that would give more detail at the exact percentage level than d20, allowing for gradual skill improvements and the like. Or is that too complicated?

Dice pool is probably OK if you're a player who likes rolling lots of dice, but its bad if you're the GM and controlling heaps of guys - particularly a worry if we end up doing a future war scenario. Even a player might end up rolling dice for their whole platoon.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;566192Dice pool is probably OK if you're a player who likes rolling lots of dice, but its bad if you're the GM and controlling heaps of guys - particularly a worry if we end up doing a future war scenario. Even a player might end up rolling dice for their whole platoon.

I find a cap of six dice works pretty well, but it still doesn't help if you are worried about large scale combat.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;566192Have to see what other people say also and unfortunately they're probably spread out across multiple time zones.

As an idea to add more detail to the d10 you could have say percentile-rated abilities but only add the 10s place to rolls, with the 1s place being rolled against if the target number is rolled exactly, or in order to break ties...that would give more detail at the exact percentage level than d20, allowing for gradual skill improvements and the like. Or is that too complicated?

Dice pool is probably OK if you're a player who likes rolling lots of dice, but its bad if you're the GM and controlling heaps of guys - particularly a worry if we end up doing a future war scenario. Even a player might end up rolling dice for their whole platoon.

Dice pool games usually don't involve big combats or are abstract and count "groups" of enemies as one to mitigate that issue. I believe just about everything has a work around but that can't be discussed until we get the group together.

I think a single die or small number of dice are best to keep things simple. Another possible alternative is rolling a die (or dice) and using the result as activity points in a set period of time.

Example:

Legionnaire Horatio of the 3rd Deaths Head legion 3rd Cohort attached to planet Arcturus Rann IV comes across a vile Xenomorph.

The GM rolls 2D6 for each side. Horatio gets 7, the Xeno gets 8. Horatio puts 3 points into initiative, adding to his Speed of 3 for a total of 6. He then puts 2 into attack, adding to his Laser Rifle skill of 3 for a total of 5. The final 2 go into defence, adding to Agility of 2 for a defence of 4.
The Xeno blows 4 points on Initiative, adding to its speed of 2 for a total of 6. It then throws caution to the wind and sticks the remaining 4 points into attack, adding to its Strength of 5 and leaving nothing for defence.

Compare totals:

Horatio Initiative 6 vs Xeno 6 - tied, so highest speed goes first (Horatio)

Horatios attack is 5 points. The Xeno threw nothing into defence.

Adding his accuracy (difference between attack and defence, 5 points) to weapon damage of 5, Horatio inflicts 10 damage on the charging Xeno.

Its armour (3 points) drops that to 7, but the Xeno only has 5 Body points anyway. At -2 Body, it gets sliced into ribbons.

=========

Dropping to his knee, Horatio unleashes bolt after bolt from his Laser Rifle, shouting "Die in the name of the Empire!!!" and chops the charging Xeno into a pulped mess. The Blue skinned, four armed, tentacled face Legionnaire walks over to the sliced up thing on the floor. "Ugly bastards" he squawks from his tentacled mouth and he prods it with one of his feet. He can't stand the relative lack of arms and legs, only two eyes and two ears, or the vile words the so called "Hu-man" makes. With a shudder he slithers off to kill more Xenos in the cause of the empire.


I think so long as the mechanics are simple to understand and easy to resolve, I don't really mind what dice are used, or what the task resolution system is *shrug*

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;566192Have to see what other people say also and unfortunately they're probably spread out across multiple time zones.

As an idea to add more detail to the d10 you could have say percentile-rated abilities but only add the 10s place to rolls, with the 1s place being rolled against if the target number is rolled exactly, or in order to break ties...that would give more detail at the exact percentage level than d20, allowing for gradual skill improvements and the like. Or is that too complicated?

Dice pool is probably OK if you're a player who likes rolling lots of dice, but its bad if you're the GM and controlling heaps of guys - particularly a worry if we end up doing a future war scenario. Even a player might end up rolling dice for their whole platoon.

A d10 with another D10 to break ties is okay the bousus bit might get confusing is you refer to it as a % though (a bonus of 30 % might make folks blanche ). 1-10 skill + 1-10 ability + 1d10 random makes a nice symetry and I think somoen came up with it on another thread somewhere.

I too am in the avoid d20 because its done to death. The danger with a d20 system is that you end up just pulling in all the d20 mechanical bagage almost unconsiously.

The idea of a AP pool might be worth a look as its a bit different. Although I think the 'difference' might be a bit too great if its a variable pool becuase then cruching of numbers gets a bit much.

I think focusing on a genre even if its wide like 'scifi' will be more rewarding than going all out generic. Of course the mechanics engine can always be reused for something else so keeping it generic makes sense but I think if you want to come out with a playable game we have to bake some setting concepts in early.

Future War was just an idea because I think the market isn't saturated. Going down a fantasy route is a bit like trying to introduce a new tomatoe sauce on the market. Historic stuff is an option but I know Brendan has a Roman game and I think those projects are really quite personal and require in depth research so maybe not the best for a collaborative effort. (and I totally saw the PCs as rements left behind on some fringe world after the major powers had reached stalemate and moved on, some strong factions, bands of renegades and the dream that the major powers might be back to save them all at some future point).

Quote from: jibbajibba;566244A d10 with another D10 to break ties is okay the bousus bit might get confusing is you refer to it as a % though (a bonus of 30 % might make folks blanche ). 1-10 skill + 1-10 ability + 1d10 random makes a nice symetry and I think somoen came up with it on another thread somewhere.

Its classic Cyberpunk - I think The Traveller uses it in his own system as well.
(I guess we were bound to have something that looked like what someone was doing!). I do like the symmetry...I'm sure there's some use to having stat and skill have the same range...
 
 

QuoteThe idea of a AP pool might be worth a look as its a bit different. Although I think the 'difference' might be a bit too great if its a variable pool becuase then cruching of numbers gets a bit much.
 
I think focusing on a genre even if its wide like 'scifi' will be more rewarding than going all out generic. Of course the mechanics engine can always be reused for something else so keeping it generic makes sense but I think if you want to come out with a playable game we have to bake some setting concepts in early.
 
Future War was just an idea because I think the market isn't saturated. Going down a fantasy route is a bit like trying to introduce a new tomatoe sauce on the market. Historic stuff is an option but I know Brendan has a Roman game and I think those projects are really quite personal and require in depth research so maybe not the best for a collaborative effort. (and I totally saw the PCs as rements left behind on some fringe world after the major powers had reached stalemate and moved on, some strong factions, bands of renegades and the dream that the major powers might be back to save them all at some future point).

I think that makes sense. I think at this stage (given a few good reasons to avoid fantasy, no one picking that as a primary choice except maybe me, and the various ideas already floating around in the thread), a SF setting/game looks like the winner. Some votes toward generic but I think (without rereading the thread to get an accurate count, though) that as many people have been opposed.

Quote from: APN;566226I think a single die or small number of dice are best to keep things simple. Another possible alternative is rolling a die (or dice) and using the result as activity points in a set period of time.
 
Example:
 
Legionnaire Horatio of the 3rd Deaths Head legion 3rd Cohort attached to planet Arcturus Rann IV comes across a vile Xenomorph.
 
The GM rolls 2D6 for each side. Horatio gets 7, the Xeno gets 8. Horatio puts 3 points into initiative, adding to his Speed of 3 for a total of 6. He then puts 2 into attack, adding to his Laser Rifle skill of 3 for a total of 5. The final 2 go into defence, adding to Agility of 2 for a defence of 4.
The Xeno blows 4 points on Initiative, adding to its speed of 2 for a total of 6. It then throws caution to the wind and sticks the remaining 4 points into attack, adding to its Strength of 5 and leaving nothing for defence.
 
Compare totals:
 
Horatio Initiative 6 vs Xeno 6 - tied, so highest speed goes first (Horatio)
 
Horatios attack is 5 points. The Xeno threw nothing into defence.
 
Adding his accuracy (difference between attack and defence, 5 points) to weapon damage of 5, Horatio inflicts 10 damage on the charging Xeno.
 
Its armour (3 points) drops that to 7, but the Xeno only has 5 Body points anyway. At -2 Body, it gets sliced into ribbons.
 
=========
 
Dropping to his knee, Horatio unleashes bolt after bolt from his Laser Rifle, shouting "Die in the name of the Empire!!!" and chops the charging Xeno into a pulped mess. The Blue skinned, four armed, tentacled face Legionnaire walks over to the sliced up thing on the floor. "Ugly bastards" he squawks from his tentacled mouth and he prods it with one of his feet. He can't stand the relative lack of arms and legs, only two eyes and two ears, or the vile words the so called "Hu-man" makes. With a shudder he slithers off to kill more Xenos in the cause of the empire.
 
 
I think so long as the mechanics are simple to understand and easy to resolve, I don't really mind what dice are used, or what the task resolution system is *shrug*

Looks interesting. What the AP system seems to do is give you a choice between a hit bonus and an initiative bonus; you could perhaps get a similar effect with less rolling by giving characters the option of a 'snap action' that has a penalty to the action but a plus to initiative, or conversely a bonus to hit if you take a penalty to initiative (aiming). However, I don't mind the system you've outlined here - it could work.

Quote from: Bloody Stupid Johnson;566251Looks interesting. What the AP system seems to do is give you a choice between a hit bonus and an initiative bonus; you could perhaps get a similar effect with less rolling by giving characters the option of a 'snap action' that has a penalty to the action but a plus to initiative, or conversely a bonus to hit if you take a penalty to initiative (aiming). However, I don't mind the system you've outlined here - it could work.

I agree its a bit different and might be worth a look.


i) 2d6 + bonus (say a typical 0-5 bonus) actually gives you a wide range this might make combat variable - not a bad thing might even be entertaining

ii) I can see APs being spent on move, initiaitve, defense, attack, non-combat actions ie skills. For example 6 APs lets you use a skill at full benefit 3 lets you use it at 50%, direct spend on defence, init or attack. Its quite flexible

iii) There might be a risk of it getting slow. A lot of options is good but can get slow.

I am not really a fan of the activityoints approach.