Quote from: The Butcher;501805It's occurred to me that, since the campaign will be mostly centered around the dungeon, one could use the dungeon to reveal the history of the setting, with levels acting as archeological strata. The top level, the "tip of the iceberg", might be a relatively recent construction like an abandoned keep or monastery; the cellar might lead to a tomb complex dating to the Old Empire, then to ruined dwarven warrens dating back to before the Dwarf-Elf War, and so on, and so forth, until players reach evidence of the setting's SF roots.

The How To Host A Dungeon .pdf is a handy free online resource that can help develop the layers of history that make up a dungeon's backstory. I'm not sure how well it would scale up to megadungeon proportions. Regardless, it may still provide some inspiration.

Quote from: km10ftp;502126The How To Host A Dungeon .pdf is a handy free online resource that can help develop the layers of history that make up a dungeon's backstory. I'm not sure how well it would scale up to megadungeon proportions. Regardless, it may still provide some inspiration.

I'm going to read this before bed tonight. Thanks for posting it!

Quote from: km10ftp;502126The How To Host A Dungeon .pdf is a handy free online resource that can help develop the layers of history that make up a dungeon's backstory. I'm not sure how well it would scale up to megadungeon proportions. Regardless, it may still provide some inspiration.

That is cool!  Thanks for posting it!


-TGA

Loving this advice- I haven't actually designed a dungeon in ages, I need to do it just for fun I think, and this is an inspiring thread.

Questions from me - do you draw the level first, then populate it? Populate it as you draw it? Or design it based on what you want the "theme" of the level to be and then populate it?

One thing I would recommend in order to keep the players from trying to go into places you don't have finished yet (like the next level down) because you KNOW they always will try - maybe have the main "bad guy" of the level hold a key or some other method the access the next level down? A bit video-gamey maybe, but effective.

Quote from: Werekoala;502428Questions from me - do you draw the level first, then populate it? Populate it as you draw it? Or design it based on what you want the "theme" of the level to be and then populate it?

I follow a rough process of outline-draw-key: I start by putting together a rough outline of stuff I want on that dungeon level. Then I draw the map. Then I finalize the key.

In practice, this process is not clear-cut. I'll jot down notes on the key as I draw the map, etc.

For example, awhile back I did a level called the Bloodpool Labyrinth. It was meant to be reminiscent of the Tomb of Horrors (while not quite so ruthless) with a large mix of "exotic magicks". (The idea being that the PCs would get sabotaged by all this spell-like effects they weren't familiar with; and then later, deeper in the dungeon, they'd have a chance to find the spellbooks describing these spells.)

My first step was to hit up all the D20 grimoires I own looking for spells that could be modified into memorable traps. I also hit up Grimtooth's and a few other resources for trap inspiration. Put together a bit list of 30-40 "cool trap" ideas.

Then I sat down and started to map. What traps complement each other? What geography do the traps require? Et cetera. In the process, some traps didn't make the cut.

Then I came back for my third pass and finalized the key: Detailed descriptions. Figuring out exactly how some traps would work. Et cetera.

In other cases, the outline phase takes the the form of figuring out what the space was originally built for; or the factions that I want present; or a few big "set-pieces". Whatever the inspiration point is.

What I haven't done since I was 12 years old was simply draw a bunch of random shapes on some graph paper and then stock 'em with stuff. IME, that's a sure-fire way to produce a really boring dungeon.

Half the fun of a good dungeon is the architecture.

QuoteOne thing I would recommend in order to keep the players from trying to go into places you don't have finished yet (like the next level down) because you KNOW they always will try - maybe have the main "bad guy" of the level hold a key or some other method the access the next level down?

I tend to avoid the idea of each level having a "boss fight" in general.

Also, while plot doors are annoying in CRPGs, they're pretty much untenable in D&D. Too many ways to bypass, overcome, or force the door.

Great, practical advice all around. Thank you all! Keep it coming!

I particularly liked How To Host A Dungeon (very inspirational), Kaldric's time-keeping and Justin's outline-to-map method (I was definitely in the "draw some shapes, stock with stuff" group). Simple things, maybe, but priceless and game-table-worthy advice.

I'm definitely aiming for an open-table game, but it's almost guaranteed that we'll have a core of 3-4 players that'll develop over time.

I have yet to start work on it because I'm Real Life's bitch right now, but as soon as I get something done, I'll post it for critique.

All the posts in this series (this is post 1 referenced in the list that follows)

Post 1: Answering to the OP, part 1
Post 2: Answering to the OP, part 2
Post 3: Answering to the OP, part 3
Post 4: Figuring out the setting, and sketching the megadungeon's side-view.
Post 5: The multiple ideas we derive from our sketch
Post 6: The identity of our Builders is revealed
Post 7: Fleshing out the setting, wilderness and dungeon
Post 8: Diagram of Bandit Level layout
Post 9: Bandit Level mapping part 1
Post 10: Bandit Level mapping part 2
Post 11: Unified draft of the Bandit level
Post 12: Factions, history and relationships on the Bandit Level
Post 13: Bandit Level Map Key, Part 1
Post 14: Bandit Level Map Key, Part 2
Post 15: Bandit Level Map Key, Part 3
Post 16: Bandit Level Map Key, Part 4

Correlary Posts

Published examples of Megadungeons; why they cannot be considered finished products
More published examples, and how to not create boring and repetitive dungeons
An example of small dungeon level, or "lair" - The Tower of Saint Makhab, Level 2
Inventory of levels and sub-levels of the original Castle Greyhawk (from Allan Grohe)
What makes a great map Great? (see following posts as well for more)
What's the Appeal of the Mega-Dungeon? (discussion thread)
How big do I make the dungeon? How small can it be?

These series of advice as posted on other Sites

Dragonsfoot
K&K Alehouse
OD&D Discussion

Answering the Original Post (Part 1)

Quote from: The Butcher;501805The one thing that's been bugging me is, how do I go about it?
How big do I make the dungeon?
How many levels should I have ready at session #1?
How do I keep PCs interested right from session #1?
How do I keep time during dungeon crawling? How do I compute time spent by PCs at exploring each room, level, etc. so I can keep a meaningful tally on resources like torch, lantern oil, rations, etc.?
How do you like your dungeon? Mythic underworld, quasi-realistic underground complex, or something else entirely?
What software, if any, do you recommend for dungeon map creation? I'm doing it by hand, but having simple and handy software at hand might be nice.
Also, since I don't know shit about archeology, how do things like entire cities get buried over time? And how would it possible to explore them without, you know, shoveling all the dirt away first?

What I would do first is get an idea of what the different levels you have encompass. It doesn't have to be complete or final. It's just to have a general idea of the type of underworld setting we are looking at.

Maybe you already have an idea for the surface. Some entry point to the dungeon, or the concept of a first level, but then, maybe not. Doesn't matter. In any case, I'd start like this:

Take a sheet of paper and draw your dungeon complex like a side-view schematics, with bands or rectangles symbolizing each level, maybe a name or a short description of the level in each rectangle, and stairs, shafts, teleporters, rivers, whatnot linking each of the levels you have. Like this:



This should give you some ideas as you go. Maybe there's a lake somewhere in the vicinity some underground levels link to. Or a volcano, a chasm, some tower or fortress in the wilderness, whatnot. You'll get a feel of the type of setting, literally, you are looking at, and your vision of the whole thing will evolve from there. You'll think about it, then maybe modify the map, then maybe just scrap it and start again. It's all cool. It'll just get better as you get ideas. You become a blacksmith by beating the crap out of iron bars and all that.

OK Wait. I'm being interrupted. I'll get back to all your other questions ASAP.

Quote from: The Butcher;501805The one thing that's been bugging me is, how do I go about it?
How big do I make the dungeon?
How many levels should I have ready at session #1?
How do I keep PCs interested right from session #1?
How do I keep time during dungeon crawling? How do I compute time spent by PCs at exploring each room, level, etc. so I can keep a meaningful tally on resources like torch, lantern oil, rations, etc.?
How do you like your dungeon? Mythic underworld, quasi-realistic underground complex, or something else entirely?
What software, if any, do you recommend for dungeon map creation? I'm doing it by hand, but having simple and handy software at hand might be nice.
Also, since I don't know shit about archeology, how do things like entire cities get buried over time? And how would it possible to explore them without, you know, shoveling all the dirt away first?

OK. I decided I'm going to build a megadungeon on this thread once I'm done with the basic advice here, to show you live how that's supposed to unfold.

So. We have a basic sideview schematics right? Then you can develop maybe a sentence or two based on the names of levels you came up with, or just come up with names now, or just wonder "what does this level do, exactly?"

You don't need to have zillions of levels. Just have a basic idea of what can be found there. Maybe anywhere from 6 to 12 levels or more. Enough for the PCs to basically depart at some point from level 1, with choices to access different levels from different access points, and go maybe deeper once more from there. You can always expand later.

The difficulty of the levels should basically reflect their depth: the deeper you go, the more dangerous it becomes. So that the players know that when they decide to go down, they might be facing greater risks. It's part of the management of danger, the tactical aspect of the game, and you place that choice into the players hands, instead of just tailoring "encounter levels" to the PCs no matter where they go. They go deep without preparing for it and got TPKd? That's because they made a tactical mistake. It's not because you were a bitch to them.

Choice. Here's a good word to keep in mind when designing a dungeon environment. When you set aside the tone, ambiance, the detail of the critters and the shape of the rooms, what it really comes down to is to create an environment the PCs can interact with meaningfully. For the interaction to be meaningful, there needs to be choices, good and bad ones, as well as clues they may or may not uncover because of their tactics, preparation, insight etc. that will help them along the way.

This means that first there are different ways for the PCs to go deeper. Different pathways, stairways and pits and ramps and teleporters and all those things, pathways that lead to different locations, maybe with some clues as to what awaits the PCs if they take this or that path. If for instance on level 1 they find bodies in a room that have been emptied of their blood all lying around a huge pit that goes very deep into the dark, they can make a few suppositions, like maybe that's a giant bats' lair, or the tomb of a vampire, or who knows? That makes things exciting. Clues. Foreshadowing. All this stuff.

The attention to choice also means that within a single level of the dungeon, there are different ways and paths for the PCs to explore. Don't make linear dungeon layouts where one room leads to the next to the next. That's boring. Create a layout where PCs can choose to go left, right, in the center, find or not the secret passage that goes around this or that way, have rooms interconnect with each other, so that the path they choose actually leads to a particular adventure for them, and not something you'd have prepared like a script for them to follow. Avoid stuff like enigmas or huge obstacles that would HAVE TO be overwhelmed to go further. Like a "bottleneck" where you have to figure out the password to get the door to the only level linked to level 1 to open. For two reasons: (1) there's no choice, the PCs have to deal with that, and if they don't want to or find it boring or whatnot, you're screwed, and (2) they might very well not figure out what you have in mind, and you should always be prepared for failure on the PCs part. Failure needs to be significant, almost a reward of its own, in the sense that it takes the adventure in different directions, instead of just stopping it dead in its tracks to have the game grind to a halt.

Oh. Don't trap them in the first level of the dungeon. Let them leave, replenish their resources, with the danger that the rooms they've cleared will be repopulated by different creatures or factions or whatnot. It's part of the dungeon's resource management too: do I keep on pushing even if I'm low on spells and three of my hirelings are dead, or do I retreat with what I've got even if I have to face more problems on this level when I come back?

Different players will be interested by different things in a dungeon. Some like tactics, resource management, overwhelming obstacles. Others like the ambiance, the decors, like to investigate the history of the place. Others are in it for the phat loot, the opportunity to kick ass and get rich. Others yet will want NPCs to interact with sometimes, some RP opportunities, will love to have problems and drama thrown at them so they can interact with the other members of the group meaningfully.

Try to provide a variety of stuff to interact with. Some fights, a variety of obstacles and creatures to deal with, a basic history or purpose to the place that can be found out if they care (doesn't need to be a novel, but something like "this was the cellar of the castle. It is now repurposed as the brigands' headquarters, and they themselves do not know the purpose of the hidden shrine in are 22b."). Maybe some monsters that can be bartered or parleyed with. Some prisoners. Orc babies if your PCs want moral dilemmas ( ). If you know the players, you'll know what interests them. If not, include a bit of everything and try to detect during the first few games what will catch their interest, and what their basic MOs are. That should become obvious very fast.

Think about the ambiance of each area. Think about the five senses. What do the walls look like? What's the smell around that corner? Does the water pool in that corridor, sending reflections or making noise if the PCs walk in it? What's the feel of that altar's surface when they touch it? What's that faint wailing in the distance? Where does this draft of cold air come from? And so on.

Alright. Pause. I'll go on in a moment.

At the start of the game, you should have your first level mapped and keyed, all layed out, as well as the levels that are linked to this first level too, in case the PCs find a passage down and decide to go deeper right away during the first session (that's usually a bad idea, but you never know). I'll come back to that part of the job once I start building a megadungeon here on this thread.

Time in a dungeon is kept using turns (in O/AD&D at least). A non-combat turn is about 10 minutes of game time, during which the PCs engage in different actions like searching along the walls, walking down a corridor, and so on. A combat turn is usually defaulted to 1 minute of real time, but that actually can vary greatly if you want to get picky about it. Count the turns and you'll be able to manage time spent in the dungeon.

I'm reaching your question about what I like in my dungeons now. I guess... I like the concept of the mythic underworld. I like the idea that the dungeon has a life of its own, and is a character of its own in the game. Maybe levels too, in a way. But that doesn't mean I don't like my dungeons and levels to feel "real" somehow. Actually, I need to visualize the environments in my head to be able to describe them to the players, so that part of the job ("what does that look/feel like? How's the light in that area? etc.) is something I keep in mind pretty much all the time.

I like dungeons that have some history to them. I think about the background of the place and its inhabitants. I think about the factions' relationships, and how they deal with each other every day when the PCs aren't looking. I include stuff like refectories and latrines and ventilation in my dungeons. It just makes the places feel more real in my mind.

I map by hand, and I would encourage you to map by hand as well. You don't need to be an artist, or even draw a straight line straight to do some mapping, and mapping on a sheet of paper, a notebook to write down your ideas as you go, using your eraser to redraw stuff as you go, keying the place wondering "what is that corner for, exactly?" is really great fun! You should totally get away from your computer, take a pencil and have a go at it. You might be surprised how fun that can be.

So avoid softwares altogether. That's my tip to you.

For the online game here on the RPG Site I draw everything by hand, then I scan it, and color/texture it using Photoshop. This is the latest map of the dungeon complex the PCs are exploring right now:



And lastly, we arrive at that archeological question. Well, dungeon complexes can be burried over time and unearthed in a variety of ways. Maybe the complex is linked to existing, used buildings or ruins in the area? The classic castle or tower ruins in the wilderness. Or the entrance is somewhere within a mine complex. Or the entrance has been recently revealed by a geological disaster, an earthquake, a flood that made the terrain slide, anything like that. Maybe an entrance is by a volcano that recently errupted? Or deep at the bottom of a lake that evaporated over time? Or maybe the complex has been magically revealed, or displaced at the area it occupies now? Maybe it's a giant flying saucer that crashed yesterday from the heavens? Use your imagination. It can be anything you want it to be.

Just so I know: is my advice useful? Do I go on with a practical example, or would I just be wasting my time?

Quote from: Benoist;504669Just so I know: is my advice useful? Do I go on with a practical example, or would I just be wasting my time?

This is solid gold. By all means, do continue!

OK Awesome. It's just that I've been pretty busy as you know, so I wanted to know what I was doing had a useful purpose to you at least. I'll go on tomorrow.

Yesterday I started sketching a sideview of a megadungeon from this thread. I started by wondering what kind of wilderness it could be found in, and what would be its entrance. I was searching while looking around, and my eyes fell on the mountains surrounding this place.



I imagined that the Bella Coola valley could make for an interesting megadungeon set up: it's a long stretching valley surrounded by mountains, basically, with two main villages and several hamlets scattered around along the river running throughout. It's fairly isolated, with the wilderness of the Central Coast being often right next door to where you live, almost literally. There are First Nations people, as well as descendants of the Norwegian settlers that came to live here in the past, and of course now, a whole variety of other people, of all sorts of backgrounds and ethnicities.

It would be easy to translate this place into a medieval fantasy setting that lies at the edge of the civilized world, so I thought, why not do it?

I started by taking a blank sheet of paper and drew the outline of a mountain. I added trees and stuff, and decided there would be a lake on the other side of the mountain, the one not facing the valley, and maybe a village of degenerated folks there.. and maybe some creepy ruins at the bottom of the lake too.

There would have been mines dug there in ages past, and these mines would serve as a possible entrance to the dungeon. And some brigands in the area too, with a lair around the base of the mountains.

I start adding this stuff on my mountain sketch, and start adding levels like this. I think about the troglodyte medieval manors I saw in the Black Périgord in France a year and a half ago. There could have been some abandoned settlements there as well, with secret passages leading deep into the dungeon.



I basically go on with my sketch, adding my rectangles, linking them with staircases and slanted passages and pits or wells, I don't know exactly yet. At some point, I wanted the top of the mountain to be a nest of rocks, with the nest itself being a dungeon level full of spiders and giant insects and all sorts of stuff, but I decide against it for the sake of simplicity, and cut off the top of the mountain to basically make it a very old volcano instead.

I start adding the numbers, starting with the entrances of the dungeon being numbered (1), with (1a) being the mines, (1b) being the ruins of the troglodyte habitations below, and (1c) being a ruined tower in the wilderness somewhere at the foot of the volcano itself.



Now I list all my items, and I start making up names for the levels, imagining what might be there, or just dropping a name that might change later, but that might give me some ideas for later.

Here's what I end up with:

(0a) The Hive
(0b) The Aarakocra Aviaries
(1a) The Mines of the Ash-Kadaï
(2a) The Ashen Court
(2b) Tombs of the Builders
(3) The Smoldering Theatre
(1b) The Trogodyte settlement ruins
(4) Ponds of the Fish Men
(4a) Sunken Ziggurat of Ankhepoth
(5) Temple of the Hand
(6) The Market Place
(6a) The Fortress Gate of the Duergar
(1c) The Brigands' Hideout

I have NO idea what several of these names entail, what form the level might take, whatsoever. I just came up with this stuff. But right there you can already see that this is coming together, and that there's a kind of background, hidden story that's coming out of this: there were mines here before, and habitations on the volcano's side too. There's a court, and aviaries, and fish men, and a temple too. Lots of factions there. Tomb of the Builders (a classic name of mine I put in some other dungeon before - it just popped onto the page again and I decided to just leave it as it came up) - who are the "Builders"? And then, there's this theatre place, and the market place. Spectacles, exchanges between the dungeon inhabitants? And the fortress of the duergar too. A gate... to the underdark? And the volcano itself, what role does it play in all this? I outlined the old main conduit/pipe of the volcano. I know it is dormant. Is there some kind of volcano cult here? I don't know.

I'm letting these ideas simmer a bit, and then I'm going to try to structure it a bit.

Very cool start!

Quote from: danbuter;505023Very cool start!

Thanks, Dan! I hope it's useful to your games, one way or the other.