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Author Topic: Adventure Games?  (Read 5059 times)

Balbinus

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Adventure Games?
« on: September 04, 2006, 08:00:33 AM »
This is aimed mostly at Settembrini,

I've noticed you refer more than once to adventure games, are you trying to draw some distinction between those and other types of rpg and if so what are the categories of rpg you have in mind?

Just curious.

Settembrini

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Adventure Games?
« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2006, 08:20:37 AM »
Yepp.

The distinction is between Adventure Roleplaying Games, and Thematic Roleplaying Games.

The idea behind is that most of all "traditional" RPGs are following the lines of adventure novels:

"Go to exotic (non day to day life) places, and overcome obstacles through brains and brawns. Suspense derives from the unsure outcome of the challenges. Exploration, sense of wonder, romantic entanglements are vital Elements for enjoyment, as the are enjoyed for their own sake and to load up the situation with meaning"

This leads to the setup we all know and love: GM in charge of the world, Players in charge of their character, doing cool stuff in unlikely places.

Thematic RPGing on the other hand only shares the method of Roleplay, but basicall is a different hobby. The difference is not unlike between Wargames (World in Flames) and German Games (Settlers of Catan).

TRPGs focus on Character centered Story development, and they go to great length to ensure that their chosen theme comes up during play.

To keep ARPGS interesting, you constantly change and elaborate the situation ( different adventures), whereas the character is, at it's roots, exchangable.

To keep TRPGS interesting, you have to keep changing players or games (that`s why there are so man narrow ones out there), whereas the situation is, at it's roots exchangable.

Furthermore there surely are hybrids, like Axis and Allies is a hybrid in another realm. "The Shadow of Yesterday" is one such hybrid approaching from the Thematic side, whereas you can have a thematic dimension in any regular adventure game too.
Thematic in that context means mostly: "concerning and exploring the nature of human emotions and conflicts".


The big fallacy is to think that the theory (forge) specifically developed for production and discussion of Thematic RPs is of any inherent value to the successfl conduct of Adventure Games.

Surely, a lot of gamers (Like Ron Edwards, starting with very character centered, un-adventerous Champions play) wanted to play thematic RPs right after learning about the RPG hobby. He actually did the bootstrap thing, and invented another type of game, to scratch this itch.

The big thing is: Most people don't have that itch.


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Balbinus

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Adventure Games?
« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2006, 08:27:08 AM »
Quote from: Settembrini
The big thing is: Most people don't have that itch.




Most gamers anyway, god only knows what people who don't currently participate in the hobby at all want.

Other than that, that makes sense to me, though I would probably call the other category Story Games.

Settembrini

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Adventure Games?
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2006, 08:29:41 AM »
Quote
Other than that, that makes sense to me, though I would probably call the other category Story Games.
That's no good, cause many people think and claim they play story games. Story is to wide a field.
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Abyssal Maw

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Adventure Games?
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2006, 08:30:15 AM »
Quote
Other than that, that makes sense to me, though I would probably call the other category Story Games.


They don't really deserve that. Both types are story games. Just one is an adventure story, and one is a thematic story.
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Balbinus

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Adventure Games?
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2006, 08:33:21 AM »
Fair enough, thematic works for me too.  Anyway, I think there is a real distinction, I think both are rpgs but very different types of rpgs.

Personally I prefer the Adventure Games, but I imagine that's true of almost everyone posting here as Thematic Games are well served by the Forge after all.

Settembrini

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Adventure Games?
« Reply #6 on: September 04, 2006, 08:49:39 AM »
Thematic games is also accepted terminology at the forge. At least they know what you mean by that. So it's the word of choice.
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Caesar Slaad

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Adventure Games?
« Reply #7 on: September 04, 2006, 09:04:43 AM »
Quote from: Settembrini
Thematic games is also accepted terminology at the forge. At least they know what you mean by that. So it's the word of choice.


And so for, it seems to have the added advantage that it doesn't seem to trip any of Nisarg's "forge hate" triggers. ;)
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Settembrini

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Adventure Games?
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2006, 09:31:15 AM »
Well, thematic games can also be non-forge, think about Everway for example. That was all about the issues of the characters, and had widely different rules. There is a subtle difference though, between thematic play (you can do this with almost any game) and specifically designed TRPGs.
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Clinton R. Nixon

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Adventure Games?
« Reply #9 on: September 04, 2006, 10:02:53 AM »
I really get behind Settembrini on this: I think there is a distinction and it's good to point it out. I like "story games," but I also understand where it can be taken offensively.

I do think there are places where the two touch and can learn from each other, and hybridize. I'm glad S. brought up The Shadow of Yesterday: it is meant to be a hybrid game, much like I'd think of "Ticket to Ride" as a hybrid between European board game design and American board game design.
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blakkie

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Adventure Games?
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2006, 11:08:06 AM »
Quote from: Settembrini
Well, thematic games can also be non-forge, think about Everway for example. That was all about the issues of the characters, and had widely different rules. There is a subtle difference though, between thematic play (you can do this with almost any game) and specifically designed TRPGs.

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I believe that's how you play a trap disarming, lockpicking rogue in Burning Wheel. Adventure BW style. I can't really offer any insight on other Forge games though.

The biggest difference I see with your methodology is that the GM puts a lot more solo prep work up front and largely alone decides what the general 'themes' are.  The depth of the prep work creates a large list of options and it is hoped that the player will find something of interest on that list in a reasonable amount of time.

You certainly seem to make the best use of that prep work with props and intricate detail.

After that it's pretty much pah-tay-toe, po-ta-toe.

P.S. This thread feels more like gaming, so I thought I'd bring it here. :)
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blakkie

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Adventure Games?
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2006, 11:40:15 AM »
Well I guess I should qualify that "pah-tay-toe/pa-ta-toe".  For example I'm not sure what the equivalent of Artha Baiting, which is sort of a game of chicken, would be. Plus there might be differences in PC to PC interactions, and how conciquences of character choices are handled.  I'll need some sleep before I pursue the details further.  Later.
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Andy K

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Adventure Games?
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2006, 12:05:43 PM »
You might want to look at another acronym other than "TRPG". Maybe "THRPG" or something. TRPG has been alive since the 1980s in asian countries as an acronym that referrs to OUR RPGs. T stands for "Tabletop" or "Table-Talk". They use that term to indicate that they're not "RPGs", which in those countries are assumed to be Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy and other console-only games with the HP, MP and levels.

You can see it yourself if you punch in "TRPG" into Yahoo or Google.  

Just wanted to give you a heads up so you can fix it now, rather than getting lost in millions of webpages (search results) later if the term takes root.

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Settembrini

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Adventure Games?
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2006, 02:17:44 PM »
Thanks! I think we'll spell it out. Thematic shall be the word, as shall adventure be.
If there can't be a TPK against the will of the players it's not an RPG.- Pierce Inverarity

Levi Kornelsen

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Adventure Games?
« Reply #14 on: September 04, 2006, 02:33:45 PM »
Quote from: Balbinus
Personally I prefer the Adventure Games, but I imagine that's true of almost everyone posting here as Thematic Games are well served by the Forge after all.


I dig both, and plenty of 'em.