I cannot accept your terminology, Settembrini; for one simple reason: only one of those "two types of games" are actually RPGs.

There is no such thing as "thematic RPGs". You could call them "Thematic story games", if you like. That would be acceptable.

There is likewise no need for such a distinction as "adventure RPGs".  Because those ARE RPGs, and the only real game that can be defined as an "RPG".

I refuse to give agency to the Forge-style story-games to continue to try to pretend that they are actually in the same hobby as we are.

The more absolute the distinction between these types of games, the easier it will be to resist having people try to shift the standards and interests and ideas of one into the other; namely, the less possible it will be for Forge-theorists to go prosletyzing at mainstream gamers.

RPGPundit

There must always be someone more radical than me.

Still, they undeniably use the method of roleplay, don`t they?

Quote from: RPGPunditI refuse to give agency to the Forge-style story-games to continue to try to pretend that they are actually in the same hobby as we are.

Gosh.

Do you "refuse to give agency" to the multimillion dollar computer RPG and MMORPG industries, too?

Because they don't give half a shit what you think.

QuoteDo you "refuse to give agency" to the multimillion dollar computer RPG and MMORPG industries, too?

Because they don't give half a shit what you think.
-Levi

Serious, non snarky answer: I don't really consider them (MMOs and such) to be roleplaying games in the tabletop sense and I'm pretty sure they don't see themselves that way, either.

Quote from: Abyssal MawSerious, non snarky answer: I don't really consider them (MMOs and such) to be roleplaying games in the tabletop sense and I'm pretty sure they don't see themselves that way, either.

The point is, "RPG" is a ridiculously broad term.

If you say, "Forge games often aren't traditional tabletop RPGs", I'll nod along vigorously.  But nobody is denying that - what people are trying to deny is that they're RPGs at all.

RP = Method of moving fictual situation forward through verbal process
RPG = RPs which are done as a leisure activity

Case settled.

Quote from: Levi KornelsenGosh.

Do you "refuse to give agency" to the multimillion dollar computer RPG and MMORPG industries, too?

Because they don't give half a shit what you think.

Yup, but they don't claim to be "tabletop RPGs". The fact that its a whole different medium makes it a bit more forgiveable that they subverted that term.

In any case, many online RPGs have more in common with mainstream RPGs than, say, "the Mountain Witch" or "the shab-al hiri roach" does.

That's how far in left field your thematic story games actually are, that fucking World of Warcraft is closer to being a mainstream RPG than they are.

RPGPundit

Quote from: Levi KornelsenThe point is, "RPG" is a ridiculously broad term.

If you say, "Forge games often aren't traditional tabletop RPGs", I'll nod along vigorously.  But nobody is denying that - what people are trying to deny is that they're RPGs at all.

The Forge considers its games part and parcel of the same hobby as D&D or GURPS, and try to apply their ideas and concepts forcefully to discussions about these other games all over the internet.

So yea, they are trying to deny it.  Hell, they're trying to argue that their games are the way RPGs "should" be.

That's why I don't buy the live and let live bullshit. The Forge is asking for appeasement while it annexes the sudetenland...

RPGPundit

This thread almost has me convinced that Pundit and Settembrini are playing good cop/bad cop, because Pundit's over-the-top reaction nearly has me convinced that Set has the right of the situation.

Quote from: RPGPunditYup, but they don't claim to be "tabletop RPGs". The fact that its a whole different medium makes it a bit more forgiveable that they subverted that term.

In any case, many online RPGs have more in common with mainstream RPGs than, say, "the Mountain Witch" or "the shab-al hiri roach" does.

That's how far in left field your thematic story games actually are, that fucking World of Warcraft is closer to being a mainstream RPG than they are.

I have Mountain Witch right here in my hand.  And going strictly by the actual mechanics of play, it's easily more traditional than Amber.  It's an oddball simply because it's written in theorese, which I think was a really bad move - it interferes with my enjoyment of the book a lot, and most people would simply view it as an impenetrable mess.

Never read or played the Roach, can't speak to it.

Your point stands for, say, Capes, and a few others.  It might suffice for Polaris.

It fails utterly for Dogs in the Vineyard.

Quote from: RPGPunditThe Forge considers its games part and parcel of the same hobby as D&D or GURPS, and try to apply their ideas and concepts forcefully to discussions about these other games all over the internet.

Some do, some don't.  

Quote from: RPGPunditHell, they're trying to argue that their games are the way RPGs "should" be.

And so are you.

QuoteThe point is, "RPG" is a ridiculously broad term.

If you say, "Forge games often aren't traditional tabletop RPGs", I'll nod along vigorously. But nobody is denying that - what people are trying to deny is that they're RPGs at all.
- Levi

You know, in another time, maybe not so long ago,  I would have agreed with you. I would have said "sure, both types are roleplaying games" and been happy about it. In recent months though I've seen a lot of forgies piss on my hobby, declare that what I do isn't "really" roleplaying or isn't "really" a story, or whatever else.. and as a result I've become a lot less tolerant of them as a movement.

So if this makes me seem intolerant, I apologize.  I have to kinda agree with Pundit though. Seperating the two hobbies completely is a nice clean first step.

Quote from: SettembriniRP = Method of moving fictual situation forward through verbal process
RPG = RPs which are done as a leisure activity

Case settled.

RPGPundit is just being his wacky ol' self, just pay him no mind. Of course they are RPGs.

They are even closer that you thought.  Like above where I point out that what you refer to as "adventure" is in truth another 'theme' that can be chosen. Further up than that you say, in part:
   To keep TRPGS interesting, you have to keep changing players or games...
Well actually no as long as the particular game includes mechanics for evolution of the 'theme' attached to a character. Although it something that is very hard to quantify, it comes out to a point roughly similar to the general RPG tendancy to change characters when changing the focus of the game.

Quote from: jrientsThis thread almost has me convinced that Pundit and Settembrini are playing good cop/bad cop...

Make that sane cop/drunken singing rodeo clown and I'm right there with you.

Quote from: Abyssal MawSo if this makes me seem intolerant, I apologize.  I have to kinda agree with Pundit though. Seperating the two hobbies completely is a nice clean first step.

Okay.

So what kind of game is this?

Hmm?

Quote from: Levi KornelsenOkay.

So what kind of game is this?

Hmm?

Let me read it first and get back to you..!