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Author Topic: "Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon  (Read 11340 times)

Blackleaf

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #90 on: November 16, 2006, 11:03:08 PM »
I asked "where I can find a forum where people are discussing RPG design without it being dominated by Forge / GNS discussions."

You claim that's just not possible, it's "a consequence of the Forge popping up and, erm, doing innovative things with game design" and that "people who like to talk about RPG design like to talk about the latest experiment which has caught their eye."

Which honestly makes me roll my eyes in disbelief.  You suggested it's not possible to discuss RPG design without it being dominated by Forge / GNS discussion, because that stuff is just so experimental?  

In that last week I've seen Forge people describe their work (games or talk about games) as being: experimental, "Hippy games", revolutionary, and being like beat poets or auteur filmmakers.

I couldn't find an icon for throwing up your hands in bewilderment and saying "Sure, whatever.  If it makes them happy to think that.  I mean, really, what difference does it make?  If they're making micro-niche games with little broad market appeal, do I care?  No, actually I don't.  I'll guess I'll just do my own thing then..."  So I used the little rolling eyes guy instead.

Anyway...

:mr-t: -- enough jibba jabba

RPGPundit

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #91 on: November 17, 2006, 12:33:23 AM »
Quote from: Warthur


At the same time, people have been experimenting with the roleplaying format since day 1, and the Forge are just a particularly visible form of this experimental spirit that's been with the hobby from the start. It is quixotic to think that by jumping up and down and shouting on the internet that you can stop people experimenting with games, just as it is paranoid to believe that just because someone is experimenting over there, you can't have fun in the way you always have over here.


Well, if you haven't noticed, there's a whole group of people over here who seem to have come here solely and exclusively to try to attack traditional RPGs and evangelize Forge-style game theory.

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #92 on: November 17, 2006, 12:36:27 AM »
Quote from: Warthur
For someone with avowedly liberal politics, you sure sound like a reactionary conservative.


Only people with conservative politics think of my politics as "liberal". People with liberal politics invariably define my politics as "conservative".


Quote

I mean, take a look at what you are doing - you're allowing yourself to be so personally offended by games that other people are playing and enjoying that you've embarked on a personal crusade to destroy this menace by SHOUTING VERY LOUDLY until people stop doing things in the privacy of their own home that you don't approve of.


Nonsense. I'm not even trying to get people to stop doing things on the internet.  I'm just trying to get them to stop pushing their things all over the internet and the world at large, specifically in the places I hang out and roleplay.

You don't see me over at the Forge or Story Games attacking Forge theory.
Yet you see all kinds of people from the Forge or Story games in here trying to push Forge theory, and attack traditional play, or attack me.

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« Reply #93 on: November 17, 2006, 12:40:25 AM »
Quote from: Warthur

What the fuck is up with this place when a poster can't make an even vaguely positive comment about the Forge without being vilified as a dirty hippy Forge-loving scumbag?


Given the mission statement of this place, and who runs this place, it might not be the best place for you to go around trying to promote the Forge.

Or at least, you shouldn't expect people to pat you on the back for doing so.

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droog

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #94 on: November 17, 2006, 03:43:39 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
You don't see me over at the Forge or Story Games attacking Forge theory.
Yet you see all kinds of people from the Forge or Story games in here trying to push Forge theory, and attack traditional play, or attack me.

Ban me then, if that's what you think (motherfucker).

I'm not 'from the Forge' or 'from Story Games', by the way. I'm a guy with a computer. I hang out here because there's some interesting people, and I liked RPG.net better before they got all heavy on us. As for you, sounds to me like you can dish it out but you can't take it.

I don't see why roleplaying has to stay forever only as what some guys in Lake Geneva imagined, any more than I think poetry always has to rhyme. If you guys want to kick me and whoever else out of your clubhouse, you can fucking well say so. I think you're stupid for it, but okay, whatever.
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Erik Boielle

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #95 on: November 17, 2006, 10:43:28 AM »
Quote from: droog
Ban me then, if that's what you think (motherfucker).

I'm not 'from the Forge' or 'from Story Games', by the way. I'm a guy with a computer. I hang out here because there's some interesting people, and I liked RPG.net better before they got all heavy on us. As for you, sounds to me like you can dish it out but you can't take it.

I don't see why roleplaying has to stay forever only as what some guys in Lake Geneva imagined, any more than I think poetry always has to rhyme. If you guys want to kick me and whoever else out of your clubhouse, you can fucking well say so. I think you're stupid for it, but okay, whatever.


Way to paint everyone who disagrees with you as a reactionary stick in the mud dude.

How very forge.
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Warthur

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #96 on: November 17, 2006, 10:47:41 AM »
Quote from: Stuart
I neither ignored what you said, nor changed it.  I agreed with it.  You said your LARP had diplomacy in it.  I said that sounds a lot like the boardgame Diplomacy.

Yeah, the only difference was that this time I said something vaguely nice about the Forge ("Whether or not you think their games are any good, you have to admit they're at least innovative"), and you leaped down my throat and accused me of setting them up alongside Ginsberg and Burroughs.

So, I apologise. Your twisting of my words is selective, rather than a general thing.
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don't want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

I recommend The RPG Pub as a friendly place where RPGs can be discussed and where the guiding principles of moderation are "be kind to each other" and "no politics". It's pretty chill so far.

Warthur

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« Reply #97 on: November 17, 2006, 10:50:10 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
Given the mission statement of this place, and who runs this place, it might not be the best place for you to go around trying to promote the Forge.

Or at least, you shouldn't expect people to pat you on the back for doing so.

You are conflating "saying something vaguely positive about the Forge" with "promoting them".

I've not pushed GNS here (I don't agree with it), I've consistently pointed out that Forge games are niche games with little-to-no hope of competing with the likes of D&D and Vampire, all I did was say that they are innovative. And they are. They do new things. Whether those new things are any good is another issue, but they do innovate.
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don't want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

I recommend The RPG Pub as a friendly place where RPGs can be discussed and where the guiding principles of moderation are "be kind to each other" and "no politics". It's pretty chill so far.

Warthur

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« Reply #98 on: November 17, 2006, 10:57:03 AM »
Quote from: Stuart
Which honestly makes me roll my eyes in disbelief.  You suggested it's not possible to discuss RPG design without it being dominated by Forge / GNS discussion, because that stuff is just so experimental?

I am going to restate my position because it's clear you didn't get what I am saying.

What I was saying that the set of "People who want to talk about RPG design" and "People who are interested in discussing highly experimental games, such as those the Forge produces" is going to be fairly high. (BE CAREFUL NOT TO MISINTERPET HERE! I am saying "People interested in discussing highly experimental games", not "People who LIKE AND ENJOY highly experimental games.") The reason for this is, er, fairly obvious to me: if you like designing games, you want to hear about interesting new techniques people have come up with, so if the Forge pops up and puts out lots of highly experimental games you are probably going to take a look to see if there's anything of merit there. Many of them might reject everything they see, but they're not going to bury their heads in the sand in case they do find something they like.

Given that the overlap is fairly high, it stands to reason that if you go on the internet and find a publicly accessible web forum which doesn't outright ban Forge discussion, you're going to find Forge discussion in your RPG design discussions. Because, erm, you're inviting everyone with an interest in RPG design to the discussion by posting it on the internet, and there's that huge overlap.

That's all that I was saying.
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don't want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

I recommend The RPG Pub as a friendly place where RPGs can be discussed and where the guiding principles of moderation are "be kind to each other" and "no politics". It's pretty chill so far.

Blackleaf

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #99 on: November 17, 2006, 11:07:32 AM »
If I predominantly saw people saying things like: "the way the setting is presented in the Shab-al-Hiri Roach is..." or even "the Monarda Law in Nobilis recommends..." that would be totally cool.

Unfortunately what you *usually* see is "according to GNS..."  or "in Narrativist game design..." or "to prevent your game from being incoherent..."  which of course, is not so cool if you think GNS is bunk.

I genuinely hope you can see the difference.

Warthur

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« Reply #100 on: November 17, 2006, 11:32:12 AM »
Quote
Unfortunately what you *usually* see is "according to GNS..."  or "in Narrativist game design..." or "to prevent your game from being incoherent..."  which of course, is not so cool if you think GNS is bunk.

I genuinely hope you can see the difference.

I do, and I agree that is irritating (but is surely solvable by just saying when you start a thread "I don't accept GNS theory, and I'm not interested in discussing it right now, so please don't apply it to this discussion"?). It wasn't necessarily what you were specifying in your earlier posts, though.
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don't want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

I recommend The RPG Pub as a friendly place where RPGs can be discussed and where the guiding principles of moderation are "be kind to each other" and "no politics". It's pretty chill so far.

James J Skach

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #101 on: November 17, 2006, 01:55:39 PM »
Quote from: Stuart
If I predominantly saw people saying things like: "the way the setting is presented in the Shab-al-Hiri Roach is..." or even "the Monarda Law in Nobilis recommends..." that would be totally cool.

Unfortunately what you *usually* see is "according to GNS..."  or "in Narrativist game design..." or "to prevent your game from being incoherent..."  which of course, is not so cool if you think GNS is bunk.

I genuinely hope you can see the difference.

QFT.

I'll say it again (without the example used in the zero-sum thread). Theory, right now, is heavily influenced by a belief that GNS is the foundation, particularly with those who are excited by it's applications.  If you want to talk about other theory (that is, theory that doesn't take GNS for granted as truth), it's more difficult.

This is frustrated by situations in which attempts to talk about non-GNS theory is sometimes interrupted with discussion that is founded on GNS.

And I don't happen to think that Pundit would ban people for talking about GNS here - in fact he seems to say that's fine.  The difference I find is that GNS is not considered the one-and-only foundation of theory - which to me, for people who want a diversity of thought and opinion about design, should be a great thing.
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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #102 on: November 17, 2006, 02:22:21 PM »
Quote from: droog
Ban me then, if that's what you think (motherfucker).

I'm not 'from the Forge' or 'from Story Games', by the way. I'm a guy with a computer. I hang out here because there's some interesting people, and I liked RPG.net better before they got all heavy on us. As for you, sounds to me like you can dish it out but you can't take it.

If I couldn't take it, I would be banning people left and right. However, I can.  I just appreciate those who write posts and start threads that have some subject other than promoting the ideologies of other sites, criticizing me, or responding aggresively to what I say.  And some of you have done way more of that than others.

Quote
I don't see why roleplaying has to stay forever only as what some guys in Lake Geneva imagined, any more than I think poetry always has to rhyme.

It doesn't, there's a wide range of definitions that fit under "RPG", both good or bad. But there are many that don't.
Just like there's a lot of things that qualify as poetry, both good and bad. But you can't take interpretive dance and try to claim that its a kind of poetry.

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Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
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droog

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #103 on: November 17, 2006, 03:54:55 PM »
Come on then, let's have it. Names, charges, evidence. No more beating about the bush. Who's acceptable and who's not? If I'm purged I want to know it.
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KrakaJak

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #104 on: November 17, 2006, 04:25:33 PM »
What's going on? I'm so confused!
What are we talking about!?!
 
All I know is this WHOLE THREAD has gotten dumb. It hurt my brain reading the whole thing. I wish I hadn't gone through the trouble.
 
I can't wait to play Vampire on monday though!
 
Were going to have an adventure game!
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