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Author Topic: "Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon  (Read 5533 times)

Yamo

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #30 on: November 15, 2006, 09:43:56 PM »
Quote from: Warthur

LARPs, CRPGs, MMORPGs have all staked their claim to the term...


Fuck them all. We were here first.
In order to qualify as a roleplaying game, a game design must feature:

1. A traditional player/GM relationship.
2. No set story or plot.
3. No live action aspect.
4. No win conditions.

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Blackleaf

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #31 on: November 15, 2006, 09:53:02 PM »
Quote
LARPs, CRPGs, MMORPGs have all staked their claim to the term, and in the case of the CRPGs and MMORPGs have reached far, far more people than traditional tabletop RPGs have. It seems somewhat strange to suddenly declare a whole bunch of games "not-RPGs" when the term has already been diluted significantly.


LARP = Live Action Roleplaying  (no problem, note the exclusion of 'Game')
CRPG = Computer Roleplaying Game (no problem)
MMORPG = Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game (no problem)

Warthur

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #32 on: November 15, 2006, 09:55:10 PM »
Quote from: Stuart
LARP = Live Action Roleplaying  (no problem, note the exclusion of 'Game')
CRPG = Computer Roleplaying Game (no problem)
MMORPG = Massively Multiplayer Online Roleplaying Game (no problem)

For clarification: are you saying that you have no problem with CRPGs and MMORPGs sharing the "RPG" term, or are you saying that "Roleplaying Game" and "RPG" are distinct terms?
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don't want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

I recommend The RPG Pub as a friendly place where RPGs can be discussed and where the guiding principles of moderation are "be kind to each other" and "no politics". It's pretty chill so far.

Blackleaf

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #33 on: November 15, 2006, 10:02:05 PM »
I can only speak for myself... but I have no problem with "Roleplaying" being used if that is the primary activity, and "Game" being used if it is, in fact, a game.  You can have Roleplaying without Game and vice versa.

CRPGs and MMORPGs are furthermore attempts to replicate actual RPGs in a computer or massively multiplay online environment.

When RPG is not appropriate:

* When it's not a game, and just roleplaying.  Some LARPs, SCA, Cosplay, etc.
* When it's not roleplaying, and instead is storytelling.  Some Forge Games, Once Upon A Story, etc.

Levi Kornelsen

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #34 on: November 15, 2006, 11:07:22 PM »
Quote from: jhkim
There have been a number of RPGs which called themselves adventure games.  That's why I said there was some momentum behind it.  Examples include:

"High Adventure Cliffhangers: The Buck Rogers Adventure Game" (1993)
"Marvel Superheroes Adventure Game" (1998)
"The Dungeons & Dragons Adventure Game" (2000)
"The Deryni Adventure Game" (2005)

as well as a host of smaller press titles ranging from "Hidden Kingdom" to "Panty Explosion".


...Huh.

I never caught the "Adventure Game" bit on D&D.

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #35 on: November 15, 2006, 11:09:24 PM »
Quote from: Warthur

What's more, people are always going to come up with new ways to reimagine the tabletop roleplaying format, and to growl and snarl at them and demand that they stop calling their games RPGs - despite the fact that said games are designed by roleplayers, heavily influenced by the format and design of other RPGs, marketed to roleplayers, and whose audience is 99% roleplayers - seems a quixotic gesture at best.


Even if it really was quixotic, and I don't think it is:

Bill:My father gave his life, making this country what it is. Murdered by the British with all of his men on the twenty fifth of July, Anno Domini, 1814. Do you think I'm going to help you befoul his legacy, by giving this country over to them, what's had no hand in the fighting for it? Why, because they come off a boat crawling with lice and begging you for soup.
Boss Tweed: You're a good one for the fighting, Bill. But you can't fight forever.
Bill: I can go down doing it.
Boss Tweed: And you will!
Bill: What did you say?
Boss Tweed: I said, you're turning your back on the future.
Bill: Not our future.

If Sorcerer and DiTV are not to be the "future" of roleplaying, then its a fight that must be had. And should they or their kin end up being the future of roleplaying, then I'd rather go down fighting and not be there to see the grizzly end of it.

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2006, 01:32:18 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
So if someone really wants to defend this term, tell me why it should be accepted as Jargon; especially now that its clear the Swine have leaped on it as yet another effort to subvert mainstream RPGs as a hobby?

I dunno – I think it's a dumbarse term myself. I don't care what you call them.
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Imperator

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2006, 07:45:39 AM »
Taking into account that the WotC started labelling D&D as an adventure game well before Settembrini drank the Forge Kool Aid and was absorbed by the Borg, I think again that Mike Mearls, always by the definitions of the Pundit is a Swine.

But of course, the Pundit is a big time Swine according to his own definition.
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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2006, 07:59:55 AM »
Like someone said here, a title for a book is one thing; the title for a movement is another.

I mean hell, Vampire and co. call themselves "storytelling games", but they aren't.

Dogs in the vinyard calls itself a Roleplaying Game, but it isn't.

There was ONE product called the D&D adventure game; it doesn't mean, however much you might wish it, that D&D has given up the claim to being an RPG.

RPGPundit
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


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Christmas Ape

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2006, 08:04:18 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
Even if it really was quixotic, and I don't think it is:

Bill:My father gave his life, making this country what it is. Murdered by the British with all of his men on the twenty fifth of July, Anno Domini, 1814. Do you think I'm going to help you befoul his legacy, by giving this country over to them, what's had no hand in the fighting for it? Why, because they come off a boat crawling with lice and begging you for soup.
Boss Tweed: You're a good one for the fighting, Bill. But you can't fight forever.
Bill: I can go down doing it.
Boss Tweed: And you will!
Bill: What did you say?
Boss Tweed: I said, you're turning your back on the future.
Bill: Not our future.

If Sorcerer and DiTV are not to be the "future" of roleplaying, then its a fight that must be had. And should they or their kin end up being the future of roleplaying, then I'd rather go down fighting and not be there to see the grizzly end of it.
:11zblink: Hooooooo shit. You're a special kind of crazy, huh?

Man, I can't wait until one of these games becomes popular enough it gets mentioned in the same breath as GURPS, and Pundit starts posting from an underground bunker coated in graph paper, feverishly rolling d20s in the palm of his hand and muttering that they'll never get him to play their damn games. They can make d20s illegal, they can confiscate all the world's character sheets, they can hang the WotC design team from the outstretched arm of a 40-foot marble and gold statue of Ron Edwards and make possession of a GM's screen a capital crime, but by god, Pundit will continue to soldier on for the brave cause of how games were played in 1980!
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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2006, 08:08:31 AM »
Quote from: Christmas Ape
:11zblink: Hooooooo shit. You're a special kind of crazy, huh?

Man, I can't wait until one of these games becomes popular enough it gets mentioned in the same breath as GURPS, and Pundit starts posting from an underground bunker coated in graph paper, feverishly rolling d20s in the palm of his hand and muttering that they'll never get him to play their damn games. They can make d20s illegal, they can confiscate all the world's character sheets, they can hang the WotC design team from the outstretched arm of a 40-foot marble and gold statue of Ron Edwards and make possession of a GM's screen a capital crime, but by god, Pundit will continue to soldier on for the brave cause of how games were played in 1980!

When I read his deliriums about how Dancey is right in saying that D20 is a huge influence in D20, o how D20 make popular the unified resolution systems, and so on, I feel that he has lived in a nuclear bunker, like Brendan Fraser in that shitty movie, and has missed everything from 1989 to the 2000.
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Settembrini

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2006, 08:21:17 AM »
Quote
After a chitchat with Ron Edwards.
No my dear paranoid friend.
That´s totally revisionist history. it was me, who came up with the distinction, long before ever meeting with Ron. And it was me, who on your very blog, convinced several people of it´s  (Adventure Roleplaying Game, as in Roleplaying Games that share stuff with all other Adventure Games, except the main method used.) merits.

And it was fucking me, who went and convinced Ron, Eoru, Clinton R. Nixon and the german forgers of it´s existance and it´s use in online discussion.
Not that they really use it. But they understood and acknowledged that I use that term and not their terminology. It´s fucking only me and Jack who think this is really a good term. And Jack seems to have left town.

Really Pundit, revisionist history par excellence. And useless. It was on your very blog, where the first discussions happened. Way before your indicated "chitchat". It´s my fucking internet agenda to promote that term, and the term thematic roleplaying instead of misleading "forgie" or "indie".

Man, I hope this is a clever scheme to popularize my agenda.

If you are honest about what you are writing, your memory is lacking, or you are a blatant liar for whatever reasons.

But: You have always stated that only Adventure RPGs may claim the title of RPGs. I have clearly shown in the story;game thread, that the thing holding together RPGs is mainly a shared method. The fact that you equal RPGs with Adventure RPGs is a historic artifact. Nothing more nothing less. Your extreme position may have it´s merits, as you don´t want to give a single inch over to your enemies. So be it. But be honest about it. Don´t tell blatant lies, where youself have been around how it really went.

You might say: the adventure RPGs/thematic RPGs distinction is giving too much merit to the thematic games. You might even say that acknowledging Thematic games to be RPGs at all is dangerous in your crusade. But that doesn´t make the facts go away. And the fact is, that Thematic Games share a method with other RPGs: Negotiation as a technique for advancing a fictious situation. And the are used for leisure. So they are Games.
Like fucking Settlers is a boardgame and my beloved Dune is a boardgame. They are not the same ballpark, but they share methods. This is how much similarities exist, and this is where they end. Different for every game.

Once, in your online persona you could admit that you were wrong. In that you attribute this terminology to the forge.
It´s mine.
Mine mine mine.
You might hate it.
But it remains mine.
And nobody elses.
Label me a swine, tell me I´m a moron for even making the attempt.
But let other people out of it, as they had nothing to do with the term.
It´s mine.
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Blackleaf

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2006, 09:18:51 AM »
I feel like I've drifted into the twilight zone here the past few days.  :(

This is the english language.  Words have commonly understood meanings.  Combining them creates compound meanings.

Game = a competitive activity involving skill, chance, or endurance on the part of two or more persons who play according to a set of rules, usually for their own amusement or for that of spectators.  - OR - an amusement or pastime  -- I prefer the first definition when trying to think about "game design"

Board game = A game involving a game board

Roleplaying Game = A game involving roleplaying

Storytelling Game = A game involving storytelling

Adventure Game = A game about adventure

Adventure Roleplaying Game = A roleplaying game about adventure

Adventure Storytelling Game = A storytelling game about adventure

Adventure Board Game = A board game about adventure

If you can take any of those parts out -- Game, Board, Roleplaying, Storytelling, Adventure -- then you could describe that activity without them.

Is Warhammer 40K a Roleplaying Game?  No.  I can play that game without any Roleplaying.

Is Once Upon a Time a Roleplaying Game?  No. I can also play that game without any Roleplaying.

Are all traditional Roleplaying Games actually Adventure Roleplaying Games?  No.  A Roleplaying game doesn't have to be about Adventure.

Are all Storytelling Games also Roleplaying Games?  No.  You can have a Storytelling game that requires no Roleplaying.

Are all Roleplaying activities Roleplaying Games?  No.  You can roleplay without having any competition, rules, goals, challenges, rewards, etc.

If I was the first one to produce a "Wuthering Heights Roleplaying Game" would I have invented that term?  No.  I might be the first person to use that term, and the first person to make that game, but it's a simple compound word with no special meaning beyond what's contained in the individual words.

So, to review:

If the activity requires Roleplaying... and it's a game... it's a Roleplaying Game.

If it doesn't require any roleplaying, or it's not actually a game... it's NOT a Roleplaying Game.

Warthur

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« Reply #43 on: November 16, 2006, 10:00:01 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit
If Sorcerer and DiTV are not to be the "future" of roleplaying, then its a fight that must be had. And should they or their kin end up being the future of roleplaying, then I'd rather go down fighting and not be there to see the grizzly end of it.

Wow. Just wow.

You and Ron Edwards really are very much alike aside from your gaming tastes, do you realise that? (Ron got laughed at on the Forge when he wheeled out his paranoid war analogies too.)

You really, truly feel that D&D is threatened by tiny games with very small print runs put out by impassioned amateurs, games which almost certainly won't survive their original creators, don't you?

Exactly how can Sorcerer and DiTV have a hope in hell of toppling D&D?
I am no longer posting here or reading this forum because Pundit has regularly claimed credit for keeping this community active. I am sick of his bullshit for reasons I explain here and I don't want to contribute to anything he considers to be a personal success on his part.

I recommend The RPG Pub as a friendly place where RPGs can be discussed and where the guiding principles of moderation are "be kind to each other" and "no politics". It's pretty chill so far.

Maddman

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"Adventure Game" is NOT acceptable Jargon
« Reply #44 on: November 16, 2006, 10:08:00 AM »
Exactly.  The point of stuff like the forge isn't that it'll topple D&D, it's that its experimental stuff for people that want to try out something different.  I think such mechanics will find their way into mainstream games, but will be polished and revised and suited to fit within games of much larger scope (which will probably lead the fans of forge games to not like them much).

Much as he protests over 'swine', Pundit is the first to jump up to tell people how they're playing wrong.
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