Quote from: Bren;835466Yes to the first. No to the second.
It depends on whether you are looking at the change in percentile points or as a ratio.

Indeed it does, but I was referring to Dervish's assertion said that modifiers were

Quote from: nDervish;833787more significant in the mid-range

which they aren't. They are larger (percentage wise), but less significant.

Quote from: JoeNuttall;835515Indeed it does, but I was referring to Dervish's assertion said that modifiers were

which they aren't. They are larger (percentage wise), but less significant.

That depends on what definition of significant you use.

I think a lot of people would agree that saving $50,000 on buying a house is more significant than saving $2 on a latte even if the savings is 20% on the latte but only 10% on the house.

Quote from: Bren;835529I think a lot of people would agree that saving $50,000 on buying a house is more significant than saving $2 on a latte even if the savings is 20% on the latte but only 10% on the house.

I might agree to pay £50,000 more for a house, but I'll never agree to pay £50,000 more for a latte!

Quote from: JoeNuttall;835545I might agree to pay £50,000 more for a house, but I'll never agree to pay £50,000 more for a latte!

I should hope not.

As a rule of thumb, I don't look for RPGs that attempt to reinvent the wheel. You don't need a clever mechanic. My top 3 favorite core mechanics are d100, d20, and d10, in that order.

The reasons I like them? Transparent probabilities. I would like to be easily compute those probabilities in my head. Because ultimately, linear or curve, makes no difference once you account for that one, intractable, ever-present variable that every RPG has (but analysts typically ignore)--the player.

For example, if you need to roll 12 or lower on 3d6, it's roughly the equal probability of having to roll a 15 or lower on d20. Say we're playing a 3d6 system but house-ruling in a d20 instead. All that means is if I, as a player, finds anything higher than a 25% whiff-factor unacceptable for my warrior character, I'm going to spend the extra points on my sword skill to get my score to 15. That's okay, though. Because my lower priority skills I'm fine succeeding only 25% of the time, which I can leave as low as 5 instead of having to buy them up to 8.

I understand some people like how modifiers tend to be big towards the middle, small on the extremes. But this assumes you're limited to just + or - modifiers to difficulty. It's not the only option. Requiring successive rolls are also possible.


And then there's also "degree of success." OD&D had "degree of success." They just called it the damage roll. Hits for 6 damage were more successful than hits for 3 damage. The degree of success has an unmistakable mechanical effect. It didn't apply to all things. Because degree of success doesn't matter in all things. Creatures with high hit points, it matters a lot how hard you hit them because it's going to take multiple hits for sure. If you're walking a tight rope over a chasm, ultimately what we're concerned about is whether you make it to the other side or plunge to your bloody death. What's a critical success going to mean? You were doing cartwheels?

The point of which to say is I try to avoid any mechanic that brings in too clever a "degree of success" system. We always have and always will be able to do that, when it's called for, by adding in a second die roll. Just like the damage die. I'm fine with critical hits that do something functionally different that the die roll can't do. Double damage? Sure. That means the attack may possible do damage above and beyond it's normal range. Bypassing armor in an armor absorb system? Awesome!

Especially for the "I love curve mechanic crowd," have you ever tried to graph the probability/effect distribution for degree of success roll on a given hit? The shape of that curve varies wildly depending on where on the core mechanic roll the target number for basic success was. Wouldn't it be better to just roll a fresh new die or dice so you can set the probability distribution of degrees of success exactly to match your aesthetic taste?


In essence, the beauty of successive dice rolls is that they can perform mathematical functions of multiplication and division without ever calling upon the math illiterates sitting around your table to have to make such calculations. Hands down, the most elegant solution, and as old as the hills. Let's see more tried and true. Wow me with its application.

Quote from: Lunamancer;867322In essence, the beauty of successive dice rolls is that they can perform mathematical functions of multiplication and division without ever calling upon the math illiterates sitting around your table to have to make such calculations. Hands down, the most elegant solution, and as old as the hills.

But slow as molasses in winter.

I find some players take seemingly forever to roll the dice (or die). Successive die rolling multiplies the time taken. So unless the successive die rolling is a known thing at the start, e.g. rolling both the to hit and the damage rolls in games like OD&D or Runequest, any successive die rolling just slows play down.

Quote from: Bren;867328But slow as molasses in winter.

I find some players take seemingly forever to roll the dice (or die). Successive die rolling multiplies the time taken. So unless the successive die rolling is a known thing at the start, e.g. rolling both the to hit and the damage rolls in games like OD&D or Runequest, any successive die rolling just slows play down.

Relative to what?

The slowest player at my table while playing D&D seriously can't add a strength modifier to the d20 hit roll without a calculator.

If we tailor made RPGs to suit slow players, they'd all suck, and those players would still hold up the game.

Quote from: Lunamancer;867357Relative to what?

Single die rolls.

If by "an age old debate" you mean "something that a very small number of people yap, run in circles, and piss themselves about and the vast majority of gamers think they're fucking idiots about," then yeah.

Quote from: JohnLynch;833511Disadvantages of Polyhedral Dice
* Those gamers who hate d20 and refuse to play any games with it won't play your game.

The technical term for such people is "fucknugget" and I don't want them within a hundred miles of my game anyway.

Which is okay, because in 42 years of this fucking stupid hobby the only place I've ever even HEARD of somebody refusing to play a game because of the god damned dice is in some obscure blocked drains of the Internet.

Quote from: Lunamancer;867322Especially for the "I love curve mechanic crowd," have you ever tried to graph the probability/effect distribution for degree of success roll on a given hit? The shape of that curve varies wildly depending on where on the core mechanic roll the target number for basic success was. Wouldn't it be better to just roll a fresh new die or dice so you can set the probability distribution of degrees of success exactly to match your aesthetic taste?

Nope, can't say I have.  I definitely could, but I see no reason to.  I don't care what those curves look like.  I have never felt a need to "set the probability distribution of degrees of success" (or even of simple success/failure).  As a GM, I don't approach the game from a standpoint of "Hmm...  The PC should have a 75% chance to succeed, so what do I need to set the Difficulty to in order to get a 75% success chance?"  My approach is "The Difficulty is X.  Period.  No matter who tries it or what their skill level is.  And the chance of success will be whatever it will be."

I don't want to set the probabilities.  That's what the rules are for.

Quote from: Bren;867424Single die rolls.

Well, if we're not adding modifiers to those single die rolls that require slow players to pull out calculators, then the equivalent to a system of successive die rolls would be also a single die roll, so the point is moot.

Oh wait. Forgot something. If you're using 3d6 as your core mechanic rather than a d20, slow players are going to have to have their calculators out anyway.

Quote from: nDervish;867468Nope, can't say I have.  I definitely could, but I see no reason to.  I don't care what those curves look like.

This was specifically directed at people who claim to prefer "curve" dice mechanics. If you don't care about probability distributions then it makes little difference.

Quote from: Lunamancer;867479Well, if we're not adding modifiers to those single die rolls that require slow players to pull out calculators, then the equivalent to a system of successive die rolls would be also a single die roll, so the point is moot.

Oh wait. Forgot something. If you're using 3d6 as your core mechanic rather than a d20, slow players are going to have to have their calculators out anyway.

:confused: Your experience is completely alien to me. I've never yet played a game that required calculators to resolve die rolls. I'm struggling to think what that would even look like and why anyone would ever choose to play that game.

Roll 3d6 get a 7 add +1 for DEX, +3 for Combat ability, -2 for Opponent's defense equals a 9. Where does a calculator even come into this?

Aside from rolling 2d6 instead of 3d6 this is exactly the sort of calculation that Honor+Intrigue uses. Most players can do the arithmetic easily. If they can't, I can. (Far faster than the average RPG player can shake, rattle, and  roll a die.) Rolling a series of dice to get a similar result would just waste my time.

Maybe you can provide an example of the problem and what you see as a solution.

Quote from: Bren;867493:confused:

Okay. No new information, just a quick recap.

I proposed successive dice rolls as an option that would allow a linear core mechanic to easily handle modifiers that are non-linear while avoiding math.

You said that would be "slow as molasses" because apparently some player can be slow about rolling dice. I asked slow relative to what, because the slow player in my group is so slow at math that he can't add a strength modifier to a d20 to hit roll without a calculator.

This isn't an alien RPG I'm talking about.

QuoteRoll 3d6 get a 7 add +1 for DEX, +3 for Combat ability, -2 for Opponent's defense equals a 9. Where does a calculator even come into this?

He would literally take out the calculator, add every number that rolled up on each die, add the +1 for dex using the calculator, then add 3 for the combat ability, then punch in -2 for the opponent's defense. And then we hope he didn't hit the wrong button by mistake. Sometimes it takes 2 or 3 tries.

QuoteMost players can do the arithmetic easily. If they can't, I can. (Far faster than the average RPG player can shake, rattle, and  roll a die.)

And all that is is an assertion. Doesn't make it right or true. Slow at math? Sllow at rolling dice? Makes little difference to me. RPG design "computation speed" arguments have always been entirely baseless. I'm fast at both. As a player, when I do shake the dice, I get to do more shaking than I even like just waiting for the GM to tell me to throw.