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Author Topic: Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)  (Read 14764 times)

crkrueger

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #45 on: March 17, 2017, 06:48:52 AM »
Quote from: Justin Alexander;952094
The advantage of saying things that are true is that you don't need to fool anybody.

But let's drag ourselves back on topic by checking in with the sort of "idiotic Forge-think, player behavioral engineering" Gary Gygax was famous for: "Gaining experience points through the acquisition of gold pieces and by slaying monsters might be questioned by some individuals as non-representative of how an actual character woudl become more able in his her or her class. Admittedly, this is so... While praying and religious-oriented acts are more properly the activities for which a character would gain experience points, this is not the stuff of exciting swords & sorcery adventure. So too, fighters need physical training and weapons practice, magic-users long hours of study in tomes of arcane lore, and thieves the repetition of their manual skills, and discernitory prowess; but none of this is suitable to gaming. It is, therefore, discarded..."

I guess we all just need to accept that AD&D -- with all of its "this game is about X, therefore you get experience for X and not for Y, because I just don't want you doing Y" nonsense -- was a story game just riddled through and through with Forge-think.

You're a kooky guy, Kruegy.


...and you're still lying by trying to pretend not "suitable for gaming", ie. Roleplaying out weapons training and studying tomes is the equivalent of the GM enforcing PC behavior by altering what PCs get experience for.  Of course you also conveniently ignore that all that stuff "not suitable for gaming" IS somewhat factored in, but taken offscreen during the training process for leveling.

Keep screeching "But AD&D did it too!", one of these times I'm sure someone will believe you.  It's always interesting, albeit pathetic, to see displays of pure sophistry if they're well constructed.  Here's hoping you manage that at some point.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

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AsenRG

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2017, 09:04:23 AM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;952114
...and you're still lying by trying to pretend not "suitable for gaming", ie. Roleplaying out weapons training and studying tomes

Without wanting to interferer in your dialogue just yet, I'd like to note that I've been giving lots and lots of XP for people roleplaying out weapons training;).

As for studying tomes, we've been doing that, too. And you can argue all the improvements you get in CoC are based around that:D!
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crkrueger

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #47 on: March 17, 2017, 09:52:20 AM »
Quote from: AsenRG;952137
Without wanting to interferer in your dialogue just yet, I'd like to note that I've been giving lots and lots of XP for people roleplaying out weapons training;).

As for studying tomes, we've been doing that, too. And you can argue all the improvements you get in CoC are based around that:D!


Which is great.  I never said I agreed with Gary's statement that none of that made for good gaming, simply that the idea Zweihander expressed that I was arguing against is not the same argument Justin quoted Gary as making.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

AsenRG

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #48 on: March 17, 2017, 10:11:58 AM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;952145
Which is great.  I never said I agreed with Gary's statement that none of that made for good gaming, simply that the idea Zweihander expressed that I was arguing against is not the same argument Justin quoted Gary as making.

Sure, but given where you are posting, you didn't expect people to avoid nitpicking your post, right?
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crkrueger

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #49 on: March 17, 2017, 11:01:00 AM »
Quote from: AsenRG;952147
Sure, but given where you are posting, you didn't expect people to avoid nitpicking your post, right?

Oh I pretty much count on it, but you don't expect me to not point out when you're not engaging the actual point under contention, right? :D

BTW, weaponizing smilies is against the Geneva conventions isn't it?
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

Justin Alexander

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #50 on: March 17, 2017, 03:40:44 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;952114
Keep screeching "But AD&D did it too!", one of these times I'm sure someone will believe you.


It's weird. You must know that multiple people besides me have already said the same thing that I'm saying in this thread, so you know that this is a transparent lie. And yet you keep repeating it. Just another example of you desperately hoping that no one will notice that you're just describing yourself?

You're a kooky guy, Kruegy.
Note: this sig cut for personal slander and harassment by a lying tool who has been engaging in stalking me all over social media with filthy lies - RPGPundit

AsenRG

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #51 on: March 17, 2017, 04:49:11 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;952159
Oh I pretty much count on it, but you don't expect me to not point out when you're not engaging the actual point under contention, right? :D

BTW, weaponizing smilies is against the Geneva conventions isn't it?

I did say I'm not touching the rest of your argument yet, didn't I?

And it's not, I checked. Smilies aren't even mentioned in the text, no doubt due to an unfortunate oversight or general negligence towards protecting people's feelingz!
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crkrueger

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #52 on: March 17, 2017, 04:54:45 PM »
Quote from: AsenRG;952256
And it's not, I checked. Smilies aren't even mentioned in the text, no doubt due to an unfortunate oversight or general negligence towards protecting people's feelingz!
Might be in the Hague Conventions, then. :D

I think Brendan will be by at some point to tell us all to stop shitting in an article thread.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

Azraele

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2017, 01:13:16 PM »
This article reads suspiciously similar to the Christian apologetics arguments that I've read. There a lot of "Gotcha!" and "you yourself admitted!" bits, a lot of pre-suppositinalism, etc.

And this is disappointing to me because, as I guy who generally agrees with the premise but who is nevertheless designing a game where the opposite is employed, I could have used some critical thought on the subject.

Oh well.
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crkrueger

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2017, 01:29:12 PM »
Quote from: Azraele;952436
This article reads suspiciously similar to the Christian apologetics arguments that I've read. There a lot of "Gotcha!" and "you yourself admitted!" bits, a lot of pre-suppositinalism, etc.

And this is disappointing to me because, as I guy who generally agrees with the premise but who is nevertheless designing a game where the opposite is employed, I could have used some critical thought on the subject.

Oh well.


Why don't you show us some of your "critical thought" on the topic oh, Great Master? :rolleyes:

It's not an analytical or expository thesis it's an argumentative thesis for fuck's sake.  It comes with a stance, then argues for it in part by anticipating and answering responses in the thesis itself.

Normally, I would expect someone who's enough of a pompous ass to dismiss someone's thesis as lacking critical thought to posess High School level knowledge of writing.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

Yes, Sean Connery's thumb does indeed do megadamage. - Spinachcat

Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

"Tangency Edition" D&D would have no classes or races, but 17 genders to choose from. -TristramEvans

AsenRG

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #55 on: March 18, 2017, 02:54:02 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;952259
Might be in the Hague Conventions, then. :D

I think Brendan will be by at some point to tell us all to stop shitting in an article thread.
I just checked those, too. No smilies hve been mentioned by those heartless people:D!

Quote from: Azraele;952436
This article reads suspiciously similar to the Christian apologetics arguments that I've read. There a lot of "Gotcha!" and "you yourself admitted!" bits, a lot of pre-suppositinalism, etc.

And this is disappointing to me because, as I guy who generally agrees with the premise but who is nevertheless designing a game where the opposite is employed, I could have used some critical thought on the subject.

Oh well.

Why are you designing a game that opposes the way you think things work;)?
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Azraele

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #56 on: March 18, 2017, 08:23:42 PM »
Quote from: AsenRG;952450
Why are you designing a game that opposes the way you think things work;)?

Interesting story: I sort of inherited it, actually. It's the re-redo of Weapons of the Gods, or the one-time re-do of Legends of the Wulin if you prefer. It's not really a system you can do GP for XP, although I love how that incentivizes getting players into the dungeon (the "meat" of D&D, if you will). Since the re-do is based on Shonen rather than "site-based" like D&D, I had to design an XP system which would encourage the kinds of activity that would make the wheels of the game roll (like getting characters in to trouble that they've got to fight their way out of) but do so in a way that makes sense from a "why would characters continue to do this" kind of way.

It would have been super useful if this article had explored the merits of that. It didn't though. It made up it's mind before it began. Speaking of which...

Quote from: CRKrueger;952450
Why don't you show us some of your "critical thought" on the topic oh, Great Master?

It's not an analytical or expository thesis it's an argumentative thesis for fuck's sake. It comes with a stance, then argues for it in part by anticipating and answering responses in the thesis itself.

Normally, I would expect someone who's enough of a pompous ass to dismiss someone's thesis as lacking critical thought to posess High School level knowledge of writing.

This thread got ya in a fightin' mood, huh? You can see some of my thoughts above. I.... Think I wrote about it more on my blog? Feel free to dig through there, I'm sure I mentioned something.

It comes with a stance... That it then tells us it can prove. It doesn't.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 08:59:48 PM by Azraele »
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Gronan of Simmerya

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2017, 12:58:01 AM »
* pours lamp oil all over the thread *
* lights a torch...*
You should go to GaryCon.  Period.

The rules can't cure stupid, and the rules can't cure asshole.

AsenRG

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #58 on: March 19, 2017, 09:11:23 AM »
Expecting a shonen transformation that deals with flames in 3...2...1...NOW!
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Azraele

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #59 on: March 19, 2017, 03:40:21 PM »
Quote from: AsenRG;952579
Expecting a shonen transformation that deals with flames in 3...2...1...NOW!


do you think this is my FINAL FOOOOOOOOOOOORM?!??!

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