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Author Topic: Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)  (Read 10421 times)

blackstone

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #30 on: December 16, 2016, 07:27:45 AM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;935325


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ZWEIHÄNDER

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #31 on: December 16, 2016, 09:19:26 AM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;935262
No, XP is simply the process by which CHARACTERS get better at whatever they decide to do.  Players shouldn't be involved. Saying "This game is about X, therefore you get experience for X and not for Y, even though your character should be getting better at Y but I just don't want you to do it", is idiotic Forge-think, player behavioral engineering.  Fuck off with that OOC self-aware bullshit.

Characters do things, they get better at things...natural expectation and just how things work.

I don't know what 'Forge-think' is, but the way I see it, as a GM, I am going to award XP for the kind of game I am running. For instance, if I am running D&D, I am going to give XP for killing monsters and plunder. If I am running Warhammer, I am going to award XP for uncovering sinister plots and stopping the spread of chaos in the microcosm. If I am running ZWEIHÄNDER, I am going to give XP for solving social intrigues, resolving conflict and survival in the wilderness.

Players need to engage in the principles of a game's design to earn XP to advance -  nothing more, nothing less.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2017, 08:07:41 PM by ZWEIHÄNDER »
No thanks.

Bluddworth

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2016, 09:10:56 PM »
I reward players who demonstrate quick thinking, an enjoyable social engagement during the game play, and when their characters overcome great obstacles by the slightest of margines.  

To me, it's all about having a great gaming session, and rewarding characters with additional XP is something that players appreciate.  

On the level of the character, I like games that use a momentum system, where if the character has a series of successes, they can unlock the use of a truly inspiring feat.  Again, it is about having a great gaming experience and not, "Hey, the rules don't say you can cut three goblin heads off with one swing of your two-handed sword".
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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2016, 02:16:57 PM »
And you can't, unless they come at you aligned just right:). What you can do with a two-handed sword is kill three goblins in a single round and it might well be easy, if they're the way goblins are commonly pictured.

Anyway, nobody is likely to change the way of handling out XP, but what games that use a momentum mechanic do you like;)?
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Skarg

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2017, 02:49:38 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;935262
... Characters do things, they get better at things...natural expectation and just how things work.

I like this approach.

I want a system where character improvement represents the ways people improve in the world. That way, what incentive there may be to improve is in-character. If Gorgro wants to improve his skills, he needs to use, study, practice them, etc. And I want the effects to literally make sense and have the right kind of values. No "I used my axe once this session and want to dump all my XP from this session into axe skill".

mAcular Chaotic

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #35 on: January 08, 2017, 06:31:09 PM »
I award a baseline amount of XP per session - they get it just for showing up and playing. That way they aren't unduly influenced to do anything in particular but can just go after what they would want to normally in the game world.

In practice, it hasn't made people lazy. They still chase after treasure and achievement. But if they spend the night bullshitting in a tavern it's fine too.

I do give extra XP if they beat a "boss" of some sort though and finish a quest.
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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #36 on: March 15, 2017, 03:07:24 AM »
Quote from: Skarg;938270
I like this approach.

I want a system where character improvement represents the ways people improve in the world. That way, what incentive there may be to improve is in-character. If Gorgro wants to improve his skills, he needs to use, study, practice them, etc. And I want the effects to literally make sense and have the right kind of values. No "I used my axe once this session and want to dump all my XP from this session into axe skill".

Burning wheel gold has a system which you could use as a template. It gets a bad name for being "Forge-y" but there's some real....Well, gold in that book.
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Justin Alexander

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #37 on: March 16, 2017, 05:20:18 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;935262
No, XP is simply the process by which CHARACTERS get better at whatever they decide to do.  Players shouldn't be involved. Saying "This game is about X, therefore you get experience for X and not for Y, even though your character should be getting better at Y but I just don't want you to do it", is idiotic Forge-think, player behavioral engineering.  Fuck off with that OOC self-aware bullshit.


I see CRKrueger is continuing his long-documented path towards redefining OD&D as a storytelling game.

It doesn't get any less weird the more he does it, though.
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CRKrueger

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #38 on: March 16, 2017, 05:53:05 PM »
Not quite as weird as your "D&D did it too!" fetish.  

Especially when you make yourself look foolish for suggesting that XP for gathering treasure and killing things is equivalent to what I was actually arguing against, which was the post that said "GMs should reward the behavior they want to see at the gaming table."
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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #39 on: March 16, 2017, 07:39:01 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;951996
Especially when you make yourself look foolish for suggesting that XP for gathering treasure and killing things is equivalent to what I was actually arguing against, which was the post that said "GMs should reward the behavior they want to see at the gaming table."

I don't see how they are not equivalent. If a GM wants to reward PCs for gathering treasure and killing things... and gives XP on that basis... how is that not rewarding behavior they want to see? Are we giving Mr. Gygax a pass because we are assuming he didn't know the implications and didn't mean to reward behavior he wanted to see? It seems like you are trying to pretend there is an XP system that has no possible effect on player/character behavior. It seems to me that any XP system will have a possible effect on character/player behavior, whether one wishes it to or not, so one should design an XP system with that in mind. Rules matter. Alternately, you can not use them, then they don't matter and you're not playing that part of the game. Or you can make your own rules, and those are the ones that matter.

Reading your other posts in the thread, it looks like you are opposed to using an XP to incentivise some behaviors but not others. OK to incentivise gathering treasure in D&D, Not OK to incentivise, by say, giving 30 Karma for stopping a major theft and apprehending the suspects in Marvel Super Heroes. I don't want to make a bunch of assumptions, but it seems like you feel one is an abstraction that doesn't influence players to play characters one way or the other, and the other does. Still... in D&D I've seen a lot more people rifling through the pockets of corpses than in, say, RuneQuest or Marvel Super Heroes, and I can't help but think the rules of the game and the XP system play some role in that behavior.

Justin Alexander

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #40 on: March 16, 2017, 08:00:46 PM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;951996
Not quite as weird as your "D&D did it too!" fetish.


If saying "OD&D gives XP awards for gold pieces and monsters" constitutes a "fetish", Gygax and the entire OSR community are kinky as fuck.

Quote from: CRKrueger;951996
Especially when you make yourself look foolish for suggesting that XP for gathering treasure and killing things is equivalent to what I was actually arguing against...


What you were arguing against:

Quote from: ZWEIHANDER;935209
If they want a game where PCs kill monsters, give XP for that. If they want a game where PCs rob and plunder, give XP for that.


You're a kooky guy, Kruegy.
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CRKrueger

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #41 on: March 16, 2017, 09:57:46 PM »
Quote from: Justin Alexander;952013
If saying "OD&D gives XP awards for gold pieces and monsters" constitutes a "fetish", Gygax and the entire OSR community are kinky as fuck.
Nice try, but no...the fetish is you taking any idea and insisting it links directly to D&D somehow because for some odd reason all the non-traditional shit you love in games has to be completely traditional.  Why you don't have the balls to admit what you like, I have no idea.

Quote from: Justin Alexander;952013
What you were arguing against:
Just can't stop yourself from being a lying prick, can you?  Anyone looking at the entire quote sees, that what you cherry picked to try and do your "D&D did it too" thing, were examples of what the point of the post was, what I quoted.

He was advocating the GM shape player's behavior into desired patterns through the type of XP award.
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #42 on: March 17, 2017, 12:28:29 AM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;952041
Just can't stop yourself from being a lying prick, can you?


You're a kooky guy, Kruegy. But I'm over here. You're talking into a mirror again.
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CRKrueger

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #43 on: March 17, 2017, 12:46:35 AM »
Quote from: Justin Alexander;952066
But I'm over here.
Yep, over there...fooling no one. ;)
Even the the "cutting edge" storygamers for all their talk of narrative, plot, and drama are fucking obsessed with the god damned rules they use. - Estar

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Isuldur is a badass because he stopped Sauron with a broken sword, but Iluvatar is the badass because he stopped Sauron with a hobbit. -Malleus Arianorum

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Incentivizing Roleplaying Behavior: A Bad Idea (Mark Brantingham)
« Reply #44 on: March 17, 2017, 04:19:32 AM »
Quote from: CRKrueger;952074
Yep, over there...fooling no one. ;)

The advantage of saying things that are true is that you don't need to fool anybody.

But let's drag ourselves back on topic by checking in with the sort of "idiotic Forge-think, player behavioral engineering" Gary Gygax was famous for: "Gaining experience points through the acquisition of gold pieces and by slaying monsters might be questioned by some individuals as non-representative of how an actual character woudl become more able in his her or her class. Admittedly, this is so... While praying and religious-oriented acts are more properly the activities for which a character would gain experience points, this is not the stuff of exciting swords & sorcery adventure. So too, fighters need physical training and weapons practice, magic-users long hours of study in tomes of arcane lore, and thieves the repetition of their manual skills, and discernitory prowess; but none of this is suitable to gaming. It is, therefore, discarded..."

I guess we all just need to accept that AD&D -- with all of its "this game is about X, therefore you get experience for X and not for Y, because I just don't want you doing Y" nonsense -- was a story game just riddled through and through with Forge-think.

You're a kooky guy, Kruegy.
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