Back in the day, when we played D&D (From now on here I mean OD&D, okay) we were all of us focused on the map.  The map gives vital clues to the treasure hunt that is dungeon exploration.  "Hey, what's over there?"  or maybe "Hey, notice this stub corridor, if there were a secret door right here..."

And this keeps up in some circles; after running a game in NYC for the Blog of Holding folks, I've remarked several times, including hereabouts, that by the end of the campaign, everybody was focused on the maps just like Ye Oldie Dayse.

At GaryCon nobody's looking at the damn map.  I think that's why the games have been so unsuccessful; people don't realize that an old man will not walk up to them in an inn and hand them a quest coupon.  D&D in its earliest incarnation is a game of exploration and treasure hunting, and to explore you have to cover ground.

This year I finally lost my temper a bit and gave them a "All Right you Primitive Screwheads, Listen Up!" speech.  And yes, I did use just those words.

Because we'd been playing for over 2 hours, and all that had happened is they'd traversed 100 feet of corridor, once in each direction.

The map.  It's all about the map.

You know, this can just as easily apply to SFRPGs like Traveller and the subsector map.

You should have vetted your players before starting the game.

It's more than that, Gronan.  No one explores for the sake of exploring anymore.  And honestly, as much as I love Fantasy Novels, TV/Movies and Video Games, they all part of the reason why and thus must blame them.  A lot of people nowadays, especially of my generation and younger, used those sources to get our fantasy fix.

One of the biggest Fantasy Book sources you can blame it on, is Lord of The Rings.  The entire trilogy effectively starts with an old man giving a Hobbit an Adventure Coupon.  A lot of books from the 70's did this, the Shannara series did, Earthsea as well, and remember a lot of kids who would be into D&D would be using that model to game.  There's a reason a meeting in a bar is considered a 'stupid cliche'.  Almost all of the novels since then have also done it.

Thing is, the younger generation after mine, also suddenly have Video Games which also uses that Adventure Coupon model, and all though the originals that used D&D as a model, like Rogue, Mines of Moria, Wizardry and the like, were kind of like the old 1974 little brown books, when the Japanese entered the gaming medium with the Atari and then the Nintendo, they brought over their RPGs, which used their ideas of story telling.  The JRPG is a combination 'Visual Novel' mixed in with D&D like mechanics, and that took off hard in the late 80s and early 90s.  All the way to affecting other forms of gaming.  But all of them use the Adventure Coupon as a hook to get their characters into the adventure.  Especially the way that the Japanese prefer to have the 'Zero to Hero' model as their basis.  Most Japanese heroes are not special, being rather common and unless the Adventure Coupon showed up, they wouldn't have done anything other than probably be yet another Salariman cog in some Japanese corporate machine.  The American hero is special from the word go, they're going to do something about the situation at hand, they don't need to be given a Coupon, they make them!

Here's the rub, I feel ya.  I honestly do.  See, your style can be analogous to Sword and Sorcery tales, which I grew up on.  The 'heroes' show up to a location, because they want to not because they have to, they face danger while looking for some loot to spend somewhere else.  Why?  Cuz they can!  There's no 'Great Evil!' that needs to be stopped or the world will end, well, if there is, the world in general will never know, because if the heroes are lucky, they will smite it and move on.  There's no impetus other than the heroes' desire to see what's over the hill, or under it.  I like that style.

It fits your love of miniatures.  And I don't mean just army figures, but I believe you've mentioned that you're also into model trains. Both types aren't built on a hook, it's built because YOU want to build them.  No one told you to build a train set or else the world is Doomed!(tm), you did it cuz you liked to.  (I could of course be wrong here, but I'm basing it off the interactions we've had over the past 6 or so years.)

But even the Conan comics, like the Savage Sword ones, had a linear thread, a story progression, a 'Hook' that was extraneous to the players' choices to go somewhere do something.

The times, Old Geezer, have changed, players have changed with them.  And for the most part, a lot of people don't want to go back to the "meet in tavern, then explore them thar hills yonder".  It sucks but that's how it goes.  I know you don't like the 'newer' style of game, but you have to realize that especially at Conventions, the new players (and by new I mean anyone who doesn't have your experiences, or played as long as you have) will be used to what they know as gaming.  And right now, your preferred way is more or less dead.

It may not stay that way, but it really is right now.  Sorry man.  

Damn, man, I know we can get on each others' nerves sometimes, but that's a hell of a post.  Thanks.

I owe you a beer.

I think I would despair, were this anywhere other than GaryCon.  Old school gaming is what GaryCon is ABOUT.  I want people to experience OD&D as we played it, not in a special way presented for a convention.  There are a few players who still get it/remember it.  So, just like I've prepared a one page precis of CHAINMAIL for new players, I'm working on a page of bullet points for OD&D.  Not like Matt Finch's primer, but more metagaming.

The key to success is proper management of expectations.

Maybe an opaque projector to shoot the map up on the wall so it's easier to see for everyone.  Hmm...

Could you talk more about the map and it's importance? Nowadays the players aren't even responsible for the map or it's just a loosely drawn placeholder so you naturally don't think much of it.

So, knowing all this, in a very silly GURPS Fantasy one off, provoked by a player who wanted absolutely no traditional fantasy races in the game, I created the Quest Giver's Guild with their distinctive question mark shaped hats.

I'm of mixed opinion on maps, I love them, I love to draw them, I love that Traveller has a world map generator app that takes a UPP and generates a map but a map can also be a problem, because sometimes I just want the players to shut up and play the game and focus on the action, and sometimes knowing the action is a couple weeks journey away kills the flow of the action dead because players want to explore every bloody point on the map.  Remember the Judges Guild Campaign Hexagon system?  Too many players see that as an invitation to a minute by minute play through.  Players!  Man I hate them!  I think I'm just gonna write novels from now on.

The Mines of Moria is the one part of LotR that worked like D&D.  Optimal side quest filled with danger, discovery, and the need to find the way through.  Hugely inspirational for me.  

Traveller is even more exploration oriented than D&D.  Heck, it does not really even have character advancement.  You explore and maybe pay off a ship.  The whole setting is about trying to make a sandbox work.  I did love that game.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030036Maybe an opaque projector to shoot the map up on the wall so it's easier to see for everyone.  Hmm...

Opaque and overhead projectors are going cheap at the local surplus places, and I have printable transparency film on the shelves here in the home office. Or, you could borrow one of the laptop fleet and one of our three LCD projectors, like I used at Gary Con three years ago; you could also borrow one of the two big-screen (42" & 52") active displays I recently picked up for next to nothing, which I bought specifically for use at Gary Con because of the issues with the controllability of the room lighting.

Just saying.

( Side comment: You'd think I'd given this some thought, based on actual play experience. Just saying. )

Quote from: Shawn Driscoll;1030032You should have vetted your players before starting the game.

This is one of those things that sounds good, that I've probably said in the past myself, that I no longer subscribe to.  Sometimes you've got to grow the hobby.  Let people try the game who aren't already sold on it, who may not fit the profile of your ideal player, and show them what it's about.

Maybe not always in your home game, but for a public-facing one shot, "Go out to the highways and hedges and compel them to come in, that my house may be full."

Heh.  The only change we'd have to make is to show the mapper's map as they draw it, rather than revealing a drawn map.

I did think of your arrangement, but was biding my time for your input.

Quote from: Dave R;1030045This is one of those things that sounds good, that I've probably said in the past myself, that I no longer subscribe to.  Sometimes you've got to grow the hobby.  Let people try the game who aren't already sold on it, who may not fit the profile of your ideal player, and show them what it's about.

Maybe not always in your home game, but for a public-facing one shot, "Go out to the highways and hedges and compel them to come in, that my house may be full."

It's a convention game.  Ya takes what ya gets.

Quote from: mAcular Chaotic;1030037Could you talk more about the map and it's importance? Nowadays the players aren't even responsible for the map or it's just a loosely drawn placeholder so you naturally don't think much of it.

Well, the referee simply describes things.  "Stairs down to the west.  Ten feet, twenty feet, thirty feet, forty feet west.  Stairs end, door north, door west, door south.  What do you do?"

Now, you don't HAVE to map, but good luck getting out alive.

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030026Back in the day, when we played D&D (From now on here I mean OD&D, okay) we were all of us focused on the map.  The map gives vital clues to the treasure hunt that is dungeon exploration.  "Hey, what's over there?"  or maybe "Hey, notice this stub corridor, if there were a secret door right here..."

And this keeps up in some circles; after running a game in NYC for the Blog of Holding folks, I've remarked several times, including hereabouts, that by the end of the campaign, everybody was focused on the maps just like Ye Oldie Dayse.

At GaryCon nobody's looking at the damn map.  I think that's why the games have been so unsuccessful; people don't realize that an old man will not walk up to them in an inn and hand them a quest coupon.  D&D in its earliest incarnation is a game of exploration and treasure hunting, and to explore you have to cover ground.

This year I finally lost my temper a bit and gave them a "All Right you Primitive Screwheads, Listen Up!" speech.  And yes, I did use just those words.

Because we'd been playing for over 2 hours, and all that had happened is they'd traversed 100 feet of corridor, once in each direction.

The map.  It's all about the map.

Interesting. This may articulate what I am not thrilled with in the 5e campaign that I'm in, or the gaming that I've seen at conventions. I've had to intervene several times in the 5e campaign to explain why the information on the map is important; I've had to jump in and explain why walking through a narrow pass or gorge is likely to get us ambushed, and the players look at me blankly. They are not stupid - they pick up on this when I mention it - but the idea of 'going around' or 'scouting' gets ditched in favor of mining the possible (probable! certain!) ambush for the XP contained in the bodies of the ambushers. I've seen this particular group cut to ribbons several times this way, and I'm the one who usually has to put them back together.

I'm fascinated by this observation. Exploration is a huge part of all the games that I run, with the players having to explore the 2D or 3D 'map' to get information. People seem to like it, s they act like they've never seen or done anything like it in gaming before. The Gary Con game we did didn't seem to have this problem and I think it's because I had the map projected up on the wall and you as the 'native guide' to keep them focused.  I dunno. Thoughts?

Quote from: Gronan of Simmerya;1030046Heh.  The only change we'd have to make is to show the mapper's map as they draw it, rather than revealing a drawn map.

I did think of your arrangement, but was biding my time for your input.

Piece of cake. The Elmo (document camera brand) is your friend, and I see them go by for cheap all the time. God makes switchers that can show both your map and theirs on the same screen, suitably obscured for the players. Got it in the basement, all ready to use on the video system. This is an easy problem; installed a lot of these over the years, and they do pack up nice and small.