By the little I've heard of this it sounds terrific in a weird mythic planescapey way.

So tell me more! Anyone played or read it? What your thoughts?

Like most LotFP stuff, it's pretentious, overrated, nihilistic trash with incredibly ugly artwork.

OTOH, the layout is really, really nice. Although I have doubts anyone would actually want to play it (unless they are masochists), the book is basically meant to be used, not read.

It's a LotFP adventure, so it's pretty light, so you can do however much work you want to port it to a better system.

Basically... it's so-so.  There's a lot of weird ideas that read like someone's cleaned up slambook regarding the art scene of the authors' hometown(s).  Which makes sense given that the Maze is as much an art museum as a prison as a dungeon (imagine that: a dungeon that's also a prison!).  There's enough detail to get you going, but expect to fill in the very large blanks.  There's also a lot of art that personally did nothing for me (too small and blobby for my tastes), although the giant map is kind of neat... depicting things by thematic relevance rather than simply contents (if there's a woman in a room, expect that room to have a picture of her face), which again fits in with the art display motif.  And (in the print version at least) there's a lot of what feels like redundancy in the text and maps both; some of it is for the sake of consistency in the presentation, but it still ends up feeling like wasted paper.

But honestly, I found it all pretty boring.  Like Alice in Wonderland but without the same sense of wonder and fun, just a burbling sense of contempt under the surface of weird-for-the-sake-of-weird dungeon crawling.  If you liked Death Frost Doom or A Red & Pleasant Land, this one may disappoint.  It's more bloated than DFD and less engaging and creative than AR&PL.

All that said!

I can see it working better in play than it does in reading.  You just need a group that either wants an odd dungeon crawl and wants to "sightsee", or enjoys actively interacting with oddities and finds fun from that.

Quote from: JeremyR;978150Like most LotFP stuff, it's pretentious, overrated, nihilistic trash with incredibly ugly artwork.

OTOH, the layout is really, really nice. Although I have doubts anyone would actually want to play it (unless they are masochists), the book is basically meant to be used, not read.

Basically agree with this, but also didn't like all the seemingly nonsense random effects/things each room had: this room is MC Escher stairs! This room you fall into the shadows! This room has some dragon-chick looking for art but apparently can't be arsed to do anything on her own for some reason!

Did yall get some super secret special edition published by Lamentations of the Flame Princess because my copy was publish by Satyr Press.

Quote from: AxesnOrcs;978166Did yall get some super secret special edition published by Lamentations of the Flame Princess because my copy was publish by Satyr Press.

[video=youtube;hou0lU8WMgo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hou0lU8WMgo[/youtube]

Quote from: JeremyR;978150Like most LotFP stuff, it's pretentious, overrated, nihilistic trash with incredibly ugly artwork.

Quote from: san dee jota;978152It's a LotFP adventure, so it's pretty light...

So are you two agreeing or disagreeing?

Up thread someone compared it to Alice in Wonderland.  Close, but I'd say it is more Dunsany-esque:  Not very good Dunsany, though.  These things are subjective: But if you're looking for a distinctly weird and whimsical Place of Mystery, this is a good start.

I think it's a gorgeous book.  The materials and binding are extremely high quality.  The layout is a model of how intuitive design.  Art is subjective, but I like it pretty well (whereas I have no appreciation for Scrap Princess's art).  I really enjoyed reading it but ultimately decided I will never run it.  It's just too weird and doesn't provide enough useful stuff.  It's a spattering of ideas but I don't want to spend the time necessary to interpret it and try to relay it to my players and then adjudicate exactly what any of it means.

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;978171 So are you two agreeing or disagreeing?

Dunno'.  Personally I can't stand LotFP as a system; it's like people forget fantasy heartbreakers exist and why they suck (and I say this as someone who doesn't hate Shadow of the Demon Lord, Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay,  or Palladium Fantasy Roleplay).  LotFP should be thrown on the pile of forgotten games as just another fantasy heartbreaker.

But I do admit to liking -some- of the different adventures and such put out for it.  Maze just isn't one of them though (even though I like some of the author's other work).

EDIT: I'd agree MotBM -is- pretentious and overrated, with ugly artwork.  I wouldn't -quite- call it trash, as it -might- play better than it reads.  But -only- for the right group.

Quote from: Crawford Tillinghast;978171Up thread someone compared it to Alice in Wonderland.  Close, but I'd say it is more Dunsany-esque:  Not very good Dunsany, though.  These things are subjective: But if you're looking for a distinctly weird and whimsical Place of Mystery, this is a good start.

Fair enough.

Quote from: JeremyR;978150Like most LotFP stuff, it's pretentious, overrated, nihilistic trash with incredibly ugly artwork.

OTOH, the layout is really, really nice. Although I have doubts anyone would actually want to play it (unless they are masochists), the book is basically meant to be used, not read.

What do you mean by nihilistic?

I think it's a masterpiece, definitely in the top five D&D modules of all time.

1) Complex, yet run-able.

2) A big dungeon that changes with each trip down and feels "Alive".

3) Boldly original and different yet still a classic "Dungeon crawl" at heart.

4) Some great NPCs and set-pieces. More opportunity for "Social" encounters than the standard dungeon (i.e. negotiating with monsters, turning them against each other, making alliances, etc).

It is extremely weird, rather "Arty", and debatably pretentious, but I'm baffled by it being described as "Nihilistic". With a few exceptions the NPCs in the Maze have distinct personalities and goals can be reasoned with: Smart players will be rewarded, psychos attempting to hack their way through will not. It's quite dark in parts but it certainly doesn't celebrate evil.

What makes Legends of the Flame Princess different from D&D? And what is this "Flame Princess" supposed to be/mean? Serious question, as I keep seeing the name bandied about but have never seen a copy or  known anyone who played or owned it.

Quote from: Dumarest;978250What makes Legends of the Flame Princess different from D&D? And what is this "Flame Princess" supposed to be/mean? Serious question, as I keep seeing the name bandied about but have never seen a copy or  known anyone who played or owned it.

Pretty much nothing, it's just a D&D Basic variant with a slightly morbid/gothy/60's Hammer horror tone. The title comes from the name of the small-press metal 'zine the writer ran back when he was a music journalist and doesn't really mean anything. I like the game, but you don't need it and you could use LotFP modules with any D&Dish system with only trivial effort.  

I should also note that MotBM is NOT a Lamentations product, it just gets confused for one because it was done by people who usually write for them.

Quote from: Dumarest;978250What makes Legends of the Flame Princess different from D&D? And what is this "Flame Princess" supposed to be/mean? Serious question, as I keep seeing the name bandied about but have never seen a copy or  known anyone who played or owned it.

LotFP stands for Lamentations of the Flame Princess. Snake Cult nails the system, just B/X with some small tweaks.

Really LotFP existed to put out new OSR modules with an emphasis on weirdness and the retroclone system was released to promote the modules and help get the product into game stores. This isn't a slam btw but what Raggi (the publisher) himself says. Ironically the ruleset ended up outselling the adventures by an order of magnitude. Apparently people can't get enough minor variations on B/X instead of useful gameable material?

Best LotFP stuff to me is by Kowolski who also puts out stuff on his own.  Stuart's latest Veins of the Earth is also good. Red and Pleasant Land is good setting material if Alice in Wonderland meets vampires appeals. The tone of these tend to be weirdness in the Ashton Smith mode meets gonzo.

A lot of Raggi's own stuff is stereotypically 'metal' and a bit too goofy and juvenile for my tastes but YMMV. Death Frost Doom is a decent adventure til you discover the White Dwarf adventure that beat it to the punch by decades.

I like MotBM just fine but prefer the creators' other work. The tried something different theoretically useful in terms of the layout but I'm not sure it works. And of course as pointed out it isn't actually a LotFP release.

Regarding 'nihilism' I suspect JeremyR is probably the same bore who posts the same one sentence review on every LotFP product on Drivethrurpg. That he actually got praised for it from another poster, neither of them apparently realizing this isn't even a LotFP release, is pathetic.

Quote from: Itachi;978134By the little I've heard of this it sounds terrific in a weird mythic planescapey way.

So tell me more! Anyone played or read it? What your thoughts?

Pretentious - well, sure.

Overrated - its defenders certainly are fulsome. There have been a lot of positive reviews. OSR products tend to move through social groups of pre-existing fans who already like the same aesthetic so reviews are often either good or just silence if people don't like it.

There have been some pockets of silence in the community which suggests that some people didn't like it very much, but I don't remember seeing any complex reviews where people take apart what they don't like about it or why they think it doesn't work. Those are rare in any community.

Nihilistic - not sure where this came from. The setting has dark elements and the meta-situation is one that is very hard to resolve neatly without unleashing danger and chaos, but it is theoretically possible to 'save' one or more of the people in the Maze. Many of the characters are strange or threatening but none of the main characters are entirely monstrous. It certainly isn't intended as a Negadungeon in which you are more screwed for going in than you would be for staying out.

The Layout - A large number of the people who played it have remarked that they find the layout excellent and useful. Its designed, with really enormous effort and difficulty, to work well at the table and is considered by many (i.e. me, and people who agree with me) to be a new standard for layout.

If someone has sat down to actually use it and found the layout incoherent or difficult then I haven't heard about it, but then I wouldn't since if people hate it, they don't play it.

The Dragon Lady who wants you to steal art wants you to do it because if she uses her full powers, turns into a Goddamn Dragon and burns her way through the Maze, then she will inevitably destroy a lot of its unique treasures. Shes a Hyper-Powerful wrecking-ball assassin, and also an art lover, the two things conflict. I don't have my copy on me right now but in the original draft its almost the first thing she says, you enter the room and she's muttering to herself saying "It would be a shame to burn it all....". So she gets the PCs to grab art for her. In the original draft, the more times you bring her art, the closer you get to her losing her temper with you or just deciding to fulfil her mission. Not sure if that stuff is still in there.

I'm not really connected to my local art scene, but most of the stuff about art is from me. It doesn't really have a deep point behind it. The Monster Manual says that Medusa's like art so it made sense to me for part of the Maze to be a gallery, since if I was an immortal badass who was into art with my own hyper-dimensional space-prison then that's what I would do. The art theme kind of lead from there.

The strange space-warping traps are all at the 'opening' to the Maze, designed to stop casual travellers and strangers getting in. They are space-warpy rather than just pit-traps or whatever, it seemed to mesh with the art style and the developing logic of the Dungeon.

As for not being playable.. well you could google "maze of the blue medusa play through", in which case you would get these links;

http://neradia.blogspot.co.uk/2017/01/uncommon-explorations-of-maze-of-blue.html

https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/5rw2tw/has_anyone_here_ever_run_maze_of_the_blue_medusa/

Half way down here https://www.reddit.com/r/rpg/comments/5n5hm1/is_dungeon_crawl_classics_rpg_worth_it/

This https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZQQFUfZlio

And a bunch more.

Your best option if you want to find out more is the buy either the simple or deluxe PDF http://www.rpgnow.com/browse/pub/10660/Satyr-Press they are both pretty cheap for what you get.

So far as I know the only hardcopies remaining with Satyr (about 40 I think) will be on sale at Gen-Con. We don't know if we are going to re-publish since Ken, the publisher, has health compliations and political stuff he is up to.