This is a site for discussing roleplaying games. Have fun doing so, but there is one major rule: do not discuss political issues that aren't directly and uniquely related to the subject of the thread and about gaming. While this site is dedicated to free speech, the following will not be tolerated: devolving a thread into unrelated political discussion, sockpuppeting (using multiple and/or bogus accounts), disrupting topics without contributing to them, and posting images that could get someone fired in the workplace (an external link is OK, but clearly mark it as Not Safe For Work, or NSFW). If you receive a warning, please take it seriously and either move on to another topic or steer the discussion back to its original RPG-related theme.
The RPGPundit's Own Forum Rules
This part of the site is controlled by the RPGPundit. This is where he discusses topics that he finds interesting. You may post here, but understand that there are limits. The RPGPundit can shut down any thread, topic of discussion, or user in a thread at his pleasure. This part of the site is essentially his house, so keep that in mind. Note that this is the only part of the site where political discussion is permitted, but is regulated by the RPGPundit.

Author Topic: Just What the Fuck is "Gonzo Gaming" Anyways?  (Read 3865 times)

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48855
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
Just What the Fuck is "Gonzo Gaming" Anyways?
« on: May 04, 2016, 05:36:28 AM »
This is a question that I think is worth providing an answer to, and someone recently asked it of me.

These days, it seems that Gonzo has come into its own in terms of popularity, to the point that some people are claiming "Gonzo" status for their RPG products when they're not.  Note, just having magic in your fantasy RPG doesn't make it "Gonzo"... it just makes it a fantasy RPG.

So what is Gonzo, then?

First, this is NOT Gonzo:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]18[/ATTACH]

This is a farce that bowdlerizes Gonzo in the same way that Cthulhu Plushies are not "Lovecraftian Horror".
Gonzo is not meant to be cute, or safe, or "loveable" as such. The Muppet Gonzo was 'gonzo' for about two seconds in his earliest appearances before he (and all the other muppets) completely sold out to become totally sanitized safe sources of amusement and obsession for children and mental-children.

THIS is real Gonzo:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]19[/ATTACH]

If you've never read this, which is quite possibly the greatest American novel of the 20th Century, you should go fucking read it, and then you won't really have to ask "what is Gonzo"?

[ATTACH=CONFIG]20[/ATTACH]

(the movie isn't as good as the book, but it is still pretty good; so if you're too much of a lazy semi-illiterate dumbass to bother reading a book that you could get through in an afternoon, you could at least watch the movie)


So Gonzo in RPGs must be understood by its original definition:  as a weird kind of trans-realism (like 'magical realism' on drugs).  It is NOT just "make up whatever"; but rather it is a kind of hyperbole: the mundane exaggerated to a bizzarre extreme.  "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas" is a true story, it really happened; but the presentation of it is in such a way as events are exagerrated until they take on a surreal and magical quality.
But it is not just mindless random weirdness; here things very explicitly are supposed to make internal sense, even if the end result is something very crazy.

How can I better explain this?

Ok, so "Lost" is 'bad gonzo', because even as it claims that it makes sense it actually had no larger plan, never did, and was smug about how 'surreal' it was for its own sake.  Any media where you just have weird shit happening just because is not Gonzo (if anything, its dadaism).  

On the other hand, "Adventure Time" is GREAT Gonzo, because it's really crazy, but it generally DOES make sense (you gradually find out or can read-into the story that underlines the reason the world in Adventure Time is what it is), while not being in any way smug about how awesome it is.  I know I earlier said Gonzo is not meant to be cute, and you could say parts of Adventure Time are in fact cute, but here cute takes a back seat to "weird" (real 'weird', not some Disney/Henson-media executive committee's idea of what they can tell children and imbeciles is 'weird'); and in spite of appearances "Adventure Time" is not really "safe"; it's a highly subversive show.  For starters, its notable in that basically all of its main characters are pretty much assholes (while clever in that it never just comes out and says that, even indirectly).


In RPG terms, the difference between a good and bad gonzo setting is that the bad one is pretty much a world that makes no sense, and the designer is almost proud for that fact. He may as well have (and indeed, may well have) just rolled totally random tables to get his world and made no effort to tie it together coherently (though sometimes alluding to some kind of Super-Secret Purpose he doesn't care to discuss).  He's often found frantically juggling a bunch of unrelated things in the air and shouting "look! look! it's gonzo!!", as though that is all it takes.

A good gonzo world can be totally weird and crazy and fucked up, but if pressed can actually can say "these fucked up things are the way they are because of a and b and c and d".  Yes, there are stylistic elements like the mixing of genres, strange anachronisms, allusions to drug culture, or the presentation of the mundane in some bizzare fashion, but the main thing that defines Gonzo is that sense of 'magical hyperbole'.   It is encapsulated in many ways by Hunter S. Thompson's famous quote: "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro".

So this is gonzo in an RPG setting for sure:


[ATTACH=CONFIG]21[/ATTACH]


Obviously I would say that my DCC campaign is gonzo.  But Arrows of Indra, which is epic and can be weird and has a lot of high-magic stuff and whatever, is not what I would call Gonzo. Awesome? Totally. But Gonzo? No.
Neither is Lords of Olympus, though with its multiversal quality and the way its magic works it could be pretty easy to make a LoO campaign that was gonzo.


This is probably just trying too hard:


[ATTACH=CONFIG]22[/ATTACH]

This is probably the most Gonzo thing D&D ever did:



Whereas this is not Gonzo as much as it is slapstick:



It's important to get this: gonzo is funny but it isn't comedy.  The kind of 'nyuk nyuk'/we-realize-we're-in-a-comedy thing shown above does not fit into the conceptual seriousness of gonzo.   Fear and Loathing is a hilarious novel to read, but because you can't believe the insanity of the situations it's describing, not because the characters at any time take themselves or the situation they're in as anything less than Gravely Serious Business.

So, that's today's lesson.  Go read Fear & Loathing; and never will any novel about a reporter covering a Las Vegas motorcycle race do so much to change your perspective on how to run RPGs.


RPGPundit

Currently Smoking: Lorenzetti Solitario Rhodesian + Gawith's Balkan Flake

(originally posted April 29, 2015)
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

JesterRaiin

  • An Outsider
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1331
Just What the Fuck is "Gonzo Gaming" Anyways?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2016, 05:44:06 AM »
I wonder on which side of this Gonzo spectrum people place Al-Amarja, the island of weird from Over the Edge RPG.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2016, 05:52:01 AM by JesterRaiin »
"If it's not appearing, it's not a real message." ~ Brett

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48855
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
Just What the Fuck is "Gonzo Gaming" Anyways?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2016, 06:24:51 AM »
Quote from: JesterRaiin;895745
I wonder on which side of this Gonzo spectrum people place Al-Amarja, the island of weird from Over the Edge RPG.

It's one of the most classically Gonzo games ever made.
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

JesterRaiin

  • An Outsider
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1331
Just What the Fuck is "Gonzo Gaming" Anyways?
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2016, 07:46:32 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;895755
It's one of the most classically Gonzo games ever made.

I see.

In such a case, I think I understand perfectly the difference between bad/good Gonzo.

And just for the sake of discussion, I'd like to add, that "bad Gonzo" doesn't immediately mean "bad experience". I think that Tales from the Floating Vagabond match the criteria, and it's quite fun game. Perhaps not good enough for long campaign, but fun nevertheless.
"If it's not appearing, it's not a real message." ~ Brett

ThatChrisGuy

  • Middle-aged Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • T
  • Posts: 589
    • http://southernstylegurps.blogspot.com/
Just What the Fuck is "Gonzo Gaming" Anyways?
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2016, 10:35:05 AM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;895739
In RPG terms, the difference between a good and bad gonzo setting is that the bad one is pretty much a world that makes no sense, and the designer is almost proud for that fact. He may as well have (and indeed, may well have) just rolled totally random tables to get his world and made no effort to tie it together coherently (though sometimes alluding to some kind of Super-Secret Purpose he doesn't care to discuss).  He's often found frantically juggling a bunch of unrelated things in the air and shouting "look! look! it's gonzo!!", as though that is all it takes.

This perfectly describes "Isle of the Unknown," a book so bad it almost made me stop buying OSR books completely.
I made a blog: Southern Style GURPS

The Butcher

  • Cyborg Shock Trooper
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7183
Just What the Fuck is "Gonzo Gaming" Anyways?
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2016, 10:58:05 AM »
As someone who is not familiar with Thompson's work, I feel this is a pretty good run-down, and it certainly encapsulates my feelings about "kitchen sink" or "over the top" cross-genre games. Gonzo wears the trappings of the absurd, but makes sense on some level.

Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;895804
This perfectly describes "Isle of the Unknown," a book so bad it almost made me stop buying OSR books completely.

Pundit has a classic review of this module, that had the author accusing him of (among other things) being a Dragonlance fan. :D

3rik

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1834
    • https://twitter.com/RPGbericht
Just What the Fuck is "Gonzo Gaming" Anyways?
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2016, 11:34:52 AM »
Well I'll be damned. I think the very first homemade fantasy setting I ran, using GURPS, had some gonzo elements to it without me realizing it at the time.
It's not Its

"It's said that governments are chiefed by the double tongues" - Ten Bears (The Outlaw Josey Wales)

@RPGbericht

Baulderstone

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1187
Just What the Fuck is "Gonzo Gaming" Anyways?
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2016, 12:22:35 PM »
Great essay.

The key is to remember that gonzo is a term popularized by a style of journalism. It really wants to tell you something. Thompson isn't using bending reality to make something obscure that you need to interpret. He is bending reality to clear away all the bullshit and let you see what he sees. Gonzo is the crazy guy yelling at you in the street, not someone trying to cultivate an air of mystery in order to look smart.

Lost is a perfect example of fake gonzo as it is busy stringing you along, convincing you that there is some great mystery to be figured out. It's the GM who is running a conspiratorial campaign, hinting at dark secrets, when he still doesn't have a clue where things are going. It's the line of RPG products that fills it's background with BIG SECRETS that will be revealed in an upcoming supplement. Fake gonzo's biggest fear is that you will see there is nothing really there.

On the other hand, Over the Edge gives you a whole setting in a modest-seized book. Every NPC is complete, understandable and ready to use. The various conspiracies may not advertise their intentions to the PCs, but they are spelled out clearly so the GM can make good use of them. It's a completely bizarre game, but it wants you to understand it. With conspiracy games, I always ask the question, how well will this game function if the players learn all its secrets? With OTE, it works just fine. The various conspiracies react to weird events, and alliances and rivalries between them come and go. Once the PCs understand the setting, it can be more interesting as the can be involved on a deeper level.

RPGPundit

  • Administrator - The Final Boss of Internet Shitlords
  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 48855
    • http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com
Just What the Fuck is "Gonzo Gaming" Anyways?
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2016, 02:54:54 AM »
Quote from: ThatChrisGuy;895804
This perfectly describes "Isle of the Unknown," a book so bad it almost made me stop buying OSR books completely.


I famously completely agree with you about how Isle of the Unknown is a shitpile of total garbage. Written by the OSR's most vastly over-rated total incompetent.
LION & DRAGON: Medieval-Authentic OSR Roleplaying is available now! You only THINK you've played 'medieval fantasy' until you play L&D.


My Blog:  http://therpgpundit.blogspot.com/
The most famous uruguayan gaming blog on the planet!

NEW!
Check out my short OSR supplements series; The RPGPundit Presents!


Dark Albion: The Rose War! The OSR fantasy setting of the history that inspired Shakespeare and Martin alike.
Also available in Variant Cover form!
Also, now with the CULTS OF CHAOS cult-generation sourcebook

ARROWS OF INDRA
Arrows of Indra: The Old-School Epic Indian RPG!
NOW AVAILABLE: AoI in print form

LORDS OF OLYMPUS
The new Diceless RPG of multiversal power, adventure and intrigue, now available.

Spinachcat

  • Toxic SocioCat
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • S
  • Posts: 14805
Just What the Fuck is "Gonzo Gaming" Anyways?
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2016, 03:56:45 AM »
I find Rifts to be "gonzo", but not Shadowrun. Anyone agree / disagree?

JesterRaiin

  • An Outsider
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1331
Just What the Fuck is "Gonzo Gaming" Anyways?
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2016, 04:00:10 AM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;896044
I find Rifts to be "gonzo", but not Shadowrun.

Where does it come from???
"If it's not appearing, it's not a real message." ~ Brett

ThatChrisGuy

  • Middle-aged Member
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • T
  • Posts: 589
    • http://southernstylegurps.blogspot.com/
Just What the Fuck is "Gonzo Gaming" Anyways?
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2016, 12:18:02 PM »
Quote from: RPGPundit;896017
I famously completely agree with you about how Isle of the Unknown is a shitpile of total garbage. Written by the OSR's most vastly over-rated total incompetent.

Someone rates him highly?
I made a blog: Southern Style GURPS

Ratman_tf

  • Alt-Reich Shitlord
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8331
Just What the Fuck is "Gonzo Gaming" Anyways?
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2016, 01:56:27 PM »
Quote from: Spinachcat;896044
I find Rifts to be "gonzo", but not Shadowrun. Anyone agree / disagree?


Agree. A big part of gonzo is having no shame. Rifts has bug-men and dinosaurs and cowboys, and doesn't give a fuck if anyone finds that silly or not.
Shadowrun mixes fantasy and cyberpunk, but in pretty predictable ways. Shadowrun could be gonzo, but doesn't cross that line. And that's fine. If everything was gonzo, nothing would be gonzo.
The notion of an exclusionary and hostile RPG community is a fever dream of zealots who view all social dynamics through a narrow keyhole of structural oppression.
-Haffrung

Motorskills

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • M
  • Posts: 1055
Just What the Fuck is "Gonzo Gaming" Anyways?
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2016, 02:32:13 PM »
Fear and Loathing is on my (way too long) reading list, so maybe I won't wrap my head around this until I've ticked that one off.


Do Call of Cthulhu / Delta Green / Trail of Cthulhu count?

There can be humour, but usually isn't. There is plenty of weirdness and (investigative / journalistic) piercing of that veil (at the cost of the PC's sanity)
“Gosh it’s so interesting (profoundly unsurprising) how men with all these opinions about women’s differentiation between sexual misconduct, assault and rape reveal themselves to be utterly tone deaf and as a result, systemically part of the problem.” - Minnie Driver, December 2017

" Using the phrase "virtue signalling" is 'I'm a sociopath' signalling ". J Wright, July 2018

Baulderstone

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1187
Just What the Fuck is "Gonzo Gaming" Anyways?
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2016, 03:04:46 PM »
Quote from: Motorskills;896175
Fear and Loathing is on my (way too long) reading list, so maybe I won't wrap my head around this until I've ticked that one off.


Do Call of Cthulhu / Delta Green / Trail of Cthulhu count?

There can be humour, but usually isn't. There is plenty of weirdness and (investigative / journalistic) piercing of that veil (at the cost of the PC's sanity)

I think you can easily do Call of Cthulhu in a gonzo style, but it isn't innately gonzo. A lot of that is going to come down to the flavor of PCs the players make. Unknown Armies is more built to be gonzo from the ground up.