In the spirit of 'how do you make monster conversions?' topic I came back to my brainstorm about one of my favorite Magic the Gathering settings, Fallen Empires. I wanted to run an AD&D spin-off of the setting and revamped a whole new spellcasting system (point-based) as a baseline conversion for cards into setting elements. However without getting too far into the weeds, I want to return to the idea so as to utilize MtG cards for their 5e setting potential.

One of the things I did was note that many 1/1 creature cards were often a group of commoners, unless heroic (like Benalish Hero or Prodigal Sorcerer). So the assumption I derived is that the group averaged around 10 HP with around 10 damage output average within a couple rounds. So Llanowar Elves or Pikemen are a group whose collective HD roughly corresponds to around 10 HP and can relatively threaten 10 damage per turn or two average. Using that baseline I tried my hand at card to monster conversion.

(There's other ideas, but they change the core mechanics of spellcasting that it changes the nature of the game greater than I want to discuss here.)

But there's plenty of challenges to deal with, especially converting keyword abilities into setting representation. So I thought this would be a fun exercise to tinker with as a community brainstorm. We'll come with our own viewpoints, and naturally butt heads, yet usable fun stuff should likely arise from the friction.

Let's create!

I'll start with my example baseline:

Card
Prodigal Sorcerer. 2U. creature — human wizard. 1/1. tap: deal 1 damage to target creature or player.

So try to get a single character to have around 10 HP average, and deal around 10 dmg average within one to two rounds. Also have a means to emulate the card's special of 10 dmg, ideally at distance or without immediate retribution, a la the CCG.

Monster
Prodigal Sorcerer. 2nd lvl Human Wizard.

ATK
Assume point buy primary stat, INT human max of 16. Atk +5, Save 13.
Assume point buy secondary stat, DEX of 14. Ranged atk +4, +2 dmg.
Firebolt, 1d10. Avg 11 dmg over two turns.
Darts/Daggers, 1d4+2. Avg 9 dmg over two turns.

DEF
Assume point buy secondary stat, DEX of 14. +2 init., +2 AC.
Assume point buy tertiary stat, CON of 12. +1 HP/lvl.
2d6+2 HP = avg. 9 HP. (akin to PC 1d6 HD +1 CON, which would be full HD at 1st lvl, half HD+1 for subsequent lvls, +1/lvl for CON. = 12 HP.)

Abil
Magic Snipe - Magic Missile. 3x (1d4+1) missiles, avg 10 dmg (10.5 round down). 3 slots. Req. Long Rest to recharge slots.

So why is this useful than a regular MM entry? Well, it's an example which helps for cards that have no real MM analog. That is actually going to be a big issue later for conversions, and where I will need more community help.

Also it is a quick note summary, which can help visualize NPCs and their agendas. Want to have a BBEG show his muscle, sending his hitman sorcerer? Then you can allocate a pool of MtG cards to him, what he has to expend to get stuff in play, and visualize resources as they are being tapped for effect.

For example, taking out the lone Pikemen card defense of a small village openly would be suicide for Prodigal Sorcerer, due to Pikemen having First Strike. However the Prodigal Sorcerer special ability shows a level of abstracted cunning and assassination of the Pikemen over a day's worth of time and preparation. The end result creates content for PCs to solve, while tallying expenditures of Holders of Power resources.

Vodalian Soldiers
1U
Creature - Merfolk Soldier
1/2

Conversion

Vodalian Soldiers
Medium Merfolk Soldiers
Swim 30'.
AC 12 to 14.
Damage Resist: Fire (due to full water immersion).
Damage Immune: Cold, Force (due to crushing depths).
Condition Immune: Prone.
Senses: Darkvision 60', Superior Tremorsense 120' (water, sonar).
Languages: Deepcommon, Merfolk (Vodalian).

Number Appearing (#A): 2-3
Frequency: Common

ATK
Assume point buy tertiary stat, STR 12.
Trident — +3 atk, 1d6+1 P dmg. avg 9 dmg for 2 soldiers, 13 dmg for 3 soldiers.

DEF
Assume point buy primary stat, CON 16.
1d10+3 each soldier. Avg 8x2=16 HP for 2 soldiers, avg 8x3=24 HP for 3 soldiers. (if as PCs then 13 HP 1st lvl, so two soldiers is 26 HP.)

(Option: Ignore CON value and give soldiers Second Wind, 1d10+1 for fighter lvls.)

Now for some challenging things, keywords and traits.

Some are self explanatory. They need little in the way of interpretation. Examples are Flying, Deathtouch, First Strike, [Land] Home, and the like.

So it is easy to translate an Air Elemental.

Card

Air Elemental, 3UU, 4/4, flying.

RPG

Air Elemental already exists in 5e MM way more completely, but this is to illustrate quick conversion of atk/def and traits. It does highlight one of the challenges from translation of AD&D to 5e, however. A decimal place shift, increasing atk/def by ten each, while usable enough for AD&D tends to be underpowered HP in 5e by at least half.

Air Elemental
Flying 120'
(Attach base flight 30' Spd to tough base, thus 4/4 creature is 30' x4, to get 120'.)

ATK trying to achieve around 40 dmg within 1 to 2 rounds. Here's MM's template:

Multi-Attack — makes two Slam attacks.

Slam — +8 atk (+5 attack stat plus tier two creature PB of +3). 2d8+5 damage. Avg 14 dmg/rd, or 28 over two.

I'd stick to 40 damage around one to two rounds myself for quick notes:

Lift & Drop - +5 atk, With STRx30 lbs weight limit, pick up target (d8+1)x10 feet (using elemental's movement) and drop them. Avg 5d6 = 24 damage. When attacking with Lift & Drop gains a bonus action to slam once.
(avg 24+13=37 dmg)

Multi-Attack - makes 3 slam attacks.

Slam - +8 atk, 3d6+3 b. avg 13 dmg. (or avg 39 dmg/rd)

DEF MM has it at 90 avg HP, 12d10+24.

Keeping to 40 HP, it's just a simple half of the above, 6d10+12, or 45 avg.

Crumples faster, frontloads the damage.

But then we get things like Shroud and Hexproof and Scry and Flanking...

Homarid Warrior
4U
Creature - Homarid (Crabman) Warrior
3/3
U: Homarid Warrior gains Shroud until end of turn and does not untap during your next untap step. Tap Homarid Warrior. (A creature with Shroud cannot be the target of spells or abilities.)

Which when we turn to the RPG we have a conversion issue. First off, who pays the one blue mana for the ability? Second, though I find this easier, what defines timing, such as what is untapping during the "untap step," or what is an "end of turn?" And third, though it seems easy, how are we defining the trait Shroud, what encompasses "spells" and "abilities?"

First question, who pays, is a challenging one. We can define it as part of a BBEG resource reserve, to be used through Wizard Eye observation. Or we can call it a portable "touch of essence," like a potion or charged fetish, to activate the Homarid Warrior's latent ability. Or we could call it the creature's own reserve, attached to its Long Rest cycle. Or we could tap Hit Dice, the new economy pool available, to feed these mechanics. Each one brings its own setting challenges.

Second question is more forgiving. "Untap step" and "end of turn" can be easily attached to the 24 hour day cycle and Long Rests. This means the "attack phase" is an aggressive foray, normally "tapping" the creature for the day. And in turn defending one's home does not normally "tap" you for the day. Being tapped is to be exhausted of reserves, maybe out of HD?, and needing rest. To be unable to untap at the next step can quickly be translated as needing a second Long Rest.

Third question seems almost self evident. Spells should correspond to spells, abilities should correspond to abilities. Thankfully WotC has termed race, class, background, etc. stuff under Features and Abilities, which as keywords helps a lot. Simply put, these creatures spend [something] to become ineligible to be targeted by [spells and abilities] for, as previously suggested, [24 hours]. That's incredibly strong. However, it also taps them, which means if they are not in the middle of action, like an attack foray, they end up "tapping" themselves for this day and the next.

So let's convert this Crabman Warrior for our games.

First off, I like the idea of using up a HD to activate its Shroud ability. It allows the creature not only a chance to use the ability itself when pertinent, it also retains HD for natural healing (read: not an ability). This makes these creatures frightening, but for the cost of requiring extra rest to be active again.

Also, due to HD refresh rates, these creatures can hold up defensively for quite a while. However, for each time they are attacked at home, defending and reactivating their Shroud ability, they are losing out on days of activity. Thus they hole up defensively well like crabs, waiting for the threat to subside to return to activity.

Secondly, I like Shroud not allowing the creature to be further targeted by new spells, features, and abilities. Thankfully most features and abilities target yourself, so most classes will be mostly unaffected. Yet there are some that target others and we should discuss them.

Defining targeting oneself versus another: the Fighter's Extra Attack targets himself and his own skill at weaponry, thus is unaffected by the creature's Shroud. However the Rogue's Sneak Attack targets the creature, which is therefore negated by Shroud. And any spells, or features/abilities using spells, targeting the creature — or AOE by the creature — simply don't work, so Paladin's Smite just does nothing, like the Wizard's Fireball. However casting Haste or Bless on yourself or allies works as usual.

Enchantments, Instants or equipped Artifacts before the Shroud is activated remain. So they can be buffed pre-Shroud, but they cannot be later healed, cured, rezzed, lay on hands, etc. by magical or feature/ability means. Thus natural equipment things, like Healing Kits to stabilize, still retain utility.

RPG

Homarid Warrior
Large Homarid Warrior
Spd Land 90', Swim 45'.
(@ 3 HD creature solo, take base rates, 30' land, 15' swim, and times by #HD)
AC 17.
Damage Resist: Fire (when fully submerged in water). Pierce.
Damage Immune: Cold, Force (due to watery depths). Slash.
Condition Immune: Blinded. Prone (when underwater).
Skills: Athletics.
Senses: Blindsight 30'. Darkvision 60'.
Language: Homarid.

Number Appearing (#A): 1 (solo).
Frequency: Common.

Amphibious.

ATK Trying to reach 30 dmg w/in 1-to-2 rds. Assume larger size, uses lance like a spear one-handed, pinch leads to grapple, and STR 16.

Extra-Attack — If attacks, gets two extra attacks.

Large Spear (Lance) — +5 atk, 1d12+3 P dmg.

Claw Pinch — +5 atk, 1d6+3 B dmg and Grapple (DC 15). Has two claws, each of which can grapple only one target.

DEF Trying to reach 30 HP.
Assume Barbarian HD, CON 16, and Scale Mail natural armor.

3d12+9 HP, avg 28. CON 16 (+3).

Ability
1 HD, reaction (or U): Gain Shroud for the next 24 hours or Long Rest, whichever first. Shrouded creatures cannot be the target of spells, features, or abilities. This creature now desires rest and will not pursue additional strenuous activity for the next 48 hours (yet will still finish this combat and defend itself later if necessary). Hours not cumulative, calculate from most recent usage of this ability.

Taking a breather... However, any MtG creature card requests? Anyone want to attempt a favorite card?

I am thinking of translating one of the following next:

Sea Serpent
Deep Spawn
Homarid

Quote from: Opaopajr;846362Taking a breather... However, any MtG creature card requests? Anyone want to attempt a favorite card?

I am thinking of translating one of the following next:

Sea Serpent
Deep Spawn
Homarid

I'm loving all of this, especially the homarids because I think crustacean humanoids are fun.

My favorite sets for truly inspiring weirdness are Kamigawa block and Mirrodin block. How about some of those crazy Kamigawa spirits or Mirrodin critters that make good use of magic items?

OK, prioritize a handful of creatures from Kanigawa and we'll see what we can cook up together!

Deep Spawn
5UU
Creature - Homarid
6/6
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Deep Spawn unless you put the top two cards of your library into your graveyard.
Trample.
U: Deep Spawn gains Shroud until end of turn and doesn't untap during your next untap step. Tap Deep Spawn. (A creature with Shroud cannot be the target of spells or abilities.)

For the most part it is very much like Homarid Warrior. The shroud wording will be the same, and we just have to increase the ATK/DEF to around 60 dmg per 1-2 rds and 60 HP. It is the upkeep and trample we have to discuss.

First the upkeep. Theoretically you can use it if you are running BBEG as an abstracted collection of card resources and an agenda. Then you can mill two off the top of his library when calling forth the Deep Spawn. Setting context would be the casting cost to call it forth from the deep, and the upkeep cost to keep it around, in this case handlers who would normally be doing your research gathering (cards).

However, that is an unnecessary inclusion for play. The simpler conversion is to keep that card text wholly as setting ecology, making it a massive one-time defender or attacker, before sinking back into the lost depths. Perhaps it is too busy breeding, lurking, or warring against bigger undersea threats to bother with smaller skirmishes closer to shore... O_o

Now Trample.

Easiest solution is to take a page from Sleep spell, it barrels over creatures with less HP than its attack damage on its way to its main target. So, like Sleep, roll damage ahead of time, tabulate, and have it barrel over smaller things in its way. Unless you can soak all its remaining attack damage it doesn't bother with intervening AC and just knocks blockers away, down to zero, and keeps on going towards its target victim.

Basically it is like a berserk humongous or gargantuan creature, like a war elephant but bigger, stomping on through weaker opponents.

Deep Spawn
Assume it is not used to land, so half 30' speed, to 15' HD multiple. Still retains 15' for swim HD multiple.
Spd 90' land, 90' swim.
AC 20.
Skills: Athletics, History, Arcana, Intimidation.
(oh why not history and arcana, it's old and knows the ways to null magic and teach its warrior spawn the same).
Senses: Blindsight 60', Superior Darkvision 130'.
Amphibious.

ATK
Extra-Attack — When attack gains 3 additional attacks. Often uses claw, claw, slam, slam/tail. Known to cooperate with other homarids nearby, and not uncommon to grapple target and drag into crushing deep water.

Claw — crush with claw and grapples. +8 atk, 2d10+5 B dmg. (avg 16 dmg.) Successful attack ends in Grapple, (DC 18)

Slam — crushes target with its massive bulk.

Tail — crushes target with massive tail snap, often used to shove.

Deep Spawn
5UU
Creature - Homarid
6/6
At the beginning of your upkeep, sacrifice Deep Spawn unless you put the top two cards of your library into your graveyard.
Trample.
U: Deep Spawn gains Shroud until end of turn and doesn't untap during your next untap step. Tap Deep Spawn. (A creature with Shroud cannot be the target of spells or abilities.)

For the most part it is very much like Homarid Warrior. The shroud wording will be the same, and we just have to increase the ATK/DEF to around 60 dmg per 1-2 rds and 60 HP. It is the upkeep and trample we have to discuss.

First the upkeep. Theoretically you can use it if you are running BBEG as an abstracted collection of card resources and an agenda. Then you can mill two off the top of his library when calling forth the Deep Spawn. Setting context would be the casting cost to call it forth from the deep, and the upkeep cost to keep it around, in this case handlers who would normally be doing your research gathering (cards).

However, that is an unnecessary inclusion for play. The simpler conversion is to keep that card text wholly as setting ecology, making it a massive one-time defender or attacker, before sinking back into the lost depths. Perhaps it is too busy breeding, lurking, or warring against bigger undersea threats to bother with smaller skirmishes closer to shore... O_o

Now Trample.

Easiest solution is to take a page from Sleep spell, it barrels over creatures with less HP than its attack damage on its way to its main target. So, like Sleep, roll damage ahead of time, tabulate, and have it barrel over smaller things in its way. Unless you can soak all its remaining attack damage it doesn't bother with intervening AC and just knocks blockers away, down to zero, and keeps on going towards its target victim.

Basically it is like a berserk humongous or gargantuan creature, like a war elephant but bigger, stomping on through weaker opponents.

Deep Spawn
Gargantuan Homarid Ancestor
Assume it is not used to land, so half 30' speed, to 15' HD multiple. Still retains 15' for swim HD multiple. Multiple equals HD, which is 6 HD...
Spd 90' land, 90' swim.
AC 20.
Damage Resist: Fire, Pierce.
Damage Immune: Cold, Force, Slash.
Condition Immune: Blind, Prone (if water submerged).
Skills: Athletics, History, Arcana, Intimidation.
(oh why not history and arcana, it's old and knows the ways to null magic and teach its warrior spawn the same. mysterious deep old one.).
Senses: Blindsight 60', Superior Darkvision 120'.

Amphibious.

ATK
Extra-Attack — When attacks gains 3 additional attacks. Often uses claw, claw, slam, slam/tail. Known to cooperate with other homarids nearby, and not uncommon to grapple target and drag it into crushing deep water.

Claw — crush with claw and grapples. +8 atk, 2d8+5 B dmg (avg 14 dmg). Successful attack may end in Grapple, (STR/DEX escape DC 18).

Slam — crushes target with its massive bulk. +8 atk, 3d10+5 B dmg (avg 21 dmg).

Tail — crushes target with massive tail snap, often used to shove. +8 atk, 2d6+5 B dmg (avg 12), and Shove 20' land, 10' swim (STR/DEX contest DC 18).

DEF
Assume Barbarian HD, CON 18, and heavy armor like Chain Mail AC 16.
d12 HD +4 CON. 6d12+24 HP (avg 63 HP).

ABILITY

Shroud — 1 HD, reaction: Gain Shroud for the next 24 hours or next Long Rest, whichever comes first. Shrouded creatures cannot be the target of spells, features, or abilities. This creature desires rest and will not pursue additional strenuous activity for the next 48 hours, (yet will still finish this combat and defend itself later as necessary). Hours not cumulative, calculate from most recent usage of this ability.

Trample — Roll damage dice at the start of the turn, or use the averages, and tally them up. Choose a target this round and approach it in the most reasonably direct path as possible, blithely crushing all weaker creatures along its way. If a creature in the Trampler's target path has less HP than the trample damage, ignore its AC, reduce that bystander creature to zero HP, subtract their previous HP value from the Trampler's damage total, and continue movement towards the target. If the target is reached with remaining damage, roll attack rolls as normal.

Easily Bored — Unless tantalized and lavished with curiosities, will return to the depths to ponder. It takes great effort to tease up Deep Spawn to visit the shallow waters and surface, it expects to have its curiosity satisfied regularly each day. It likes large new containers, especially with many secret compartments, such as ships!

Only two more Fallen Empires crabmen to go! And here's my favorite one.

Homarid
2U
Creature - Homarid (crabmen)
2/2

Homarid enters battlefield with a tide counter on it.
At the beginning of your upkeep, put a tide counter on Homarid.
As long as there is exactly one tide counter on Homarid, it gets -1/-1.
As long as there is exactly three tide counters on Homarid, it gets +1/+1.
 Whenever there are four tide counters on Homarid, remove all tide counters from it.

It's a 2/2 creature that comes into play as a 1/1! Then it grows... then it shrinks... then it grows again. Its cycle is: 1/1, 2/2, 3/3, 2/2, 1/1, 2/2, 3/3, 2/2, 1/1... It waxes and wanes with the tides.

This is another one of the multiple characters in the picture creatures. It's more of a group than anything, and represents either a) the strengthening of the creatures from the tides, or b) their larger gathering of numbers! I really like that second one and instead of really making this an ability, I am going to focus on number appearing (#A) as associated with the tides.

First challenge, given that we establish a turn till next upkeep is 24 hours, our tides don't exactly work that way, taking over 72 hours to wax or wane full. However, this is a fantasy world and we can say that this daily cycle represents the social gathering over time of crabmen. Perhaps the tides stir up nutrients in 72 hour cycle, and that flux of food creates that flux of crabmen gathering?

Whatever it is, we can easily convert this. Perhaps large gatherings of crabmen become bold and aggressive to other sentients as potential food? They mysteriously gather en masse routinely, grab stuff, eat almost anything, study new objects and tools, and then ebb away...

Homarids
Spd 25' land, 20' swim.
AC 14.
Damage Resist: Fire (if water submerged), Pierce.
Damage Immune: Cold, Force, Slash.
Condition Immune: Blind, Prone (if water submerged).
Skills: Stealth, Investigation, Perception
Senses: Blindsight 30'.
Languages: Homarid.

Amphibious.

Number Appearing (#A): (2, 5, 8, 5, loop)
Day 1, a pair of Homarids appear, often timid, hiding, investigating.
Day 2, five Homarids appear, bolder, more curious, yet still cautious.
Day 3, eight Homarids appear, bold, grabby, collecting things they like.
Day 4, return to 5 Homarids, sheepish, returning broken stuff, dropping gifts.
Repeat Cycle back at Day 1, back to 2 Homarids, skittish, watching from afar.

Frequency: Common.

ATK
assumed STR of 10 (0).
Multi-Attack — may pinch with claws twice.

Spear — +2 atk, 1d8 P dmg. (avg 4 dmg) used "two-handed," rarely thrown, and then not well. Usually used against enemies resistant to bludgeoning, like their mortal octopi enemies.

Claw Pinch — +2 atk, 1d4 B dmg (avg 2 dmg) and if successful target may be grappled (STR/DEX escape DC 10). Homarid has two claws, each of which can grab one target. Tend to be very grabby creatures, sometimes curious, sometimes to see if edible.

DEF
assumed CON of 10 (0).
d8 HD, 1d8 HP. (avg 4 HP)

So two Homarid crabmen are around 8 HP, 5 around 20 HP, and 8 around 32 HP.
And with attacks, with spears 2 are 8 dmg/rd, 5 around 20 dmg, 8 around 32 dmg.
With claws 2 are 8 dmg/rd, 5 around 20 dmg, 8 around 32 dmg.

They have a penchant for helping each other and dogpiling potential victims. Most people have better sense to leave a large gang of rowdy crabmen alone during their revelries. Since they love junkyard piles the most, average coastal dwellers don't bother them during their surges.

Quote from: Opaopajr;846377OK, prioritize a handful of creatures from Kanigawa and we'll see what we can cook up together!

A bit busy preparing more mundane stats for my current campaign, I'll get back to you on that.

Go Icatia, go Icatia!

NB: I have the Hand of Justice in my Icatia deck, but does it belong there, actually?

I ran Fallen Empires in Tunnels & Trolls many years ago and it was awesome!
The complete card list is easy to find online and very useful.

If you can, hunt down the Fallen Empires comics too.

Quote from: Shipyard Locked;846368I'm loving all of this, especially the homarids because I think crustacean humanoids are fun.

My favorite sets for truly inspiring weirdness are Kamigawa block and Mirrodin block. How about some of those crazy Kamigawa spirits or Mirrodin critters that make good use of magic items?

I have a soft spot for the crabmen because they are roundly considered one of the worst creature races in MtG. It's really fun attacking with 5/3 Homarids and 3/1 Camarids (Homarid Spawning Bed) when they sync with Tidal Influence. That underdog quality also extends to the rest of the set.

But more importantly it has a crazy cool setting premise!

As for Kamigawa, I see spirits, bushido, and rotating dual cards. Anything in particular to collaborate translating? Could be fun stuff to port in Kara-Tur or L5R.

Quote from: Settembrini;846531Go Icatia, go Icatia!

NB: I have the Hand of Justice in my Icatia deck, but does it belong there, actually?

Yes, Icatia! Technically Hand of Justice is for followers of Oliver Farrel, an infighting group of white to purify the lands of Icatia from within. They want to purify the lands in hope of placating God to avert the coming destructive Ice Age.

Hand of Justice is the avatar of the rebellious religious sect, lead by Oliver Farrel and where the card Farrel's Zealots arise, inside the lands of Icatia. Each color is dealing with the coming Ice Age and is dying. In response several religions freak out and start going nuts, eating their own from within.

Quote from: Spinachcat;846604I ran Fallen Empires in Tunnels & Trolls many years ago and it was awesome!
The complete card list is easy to find online and very useful.

If you can, hunt down the Fallen Empires comics too.

Easiest way to check is Magic the Gatherer website (note the 'er' at the end). Complete list, pictures, sortable, etc. of every set released. Great tool

How is the comic? The setting is absolutely amazing in what was suggested from a mere 103? cards.

Basically each color had a predominant culture on the continent of Sarpadia. They are now all fading due to climate change disruption from the coming Ice Age. Where they previously fought each other, now they have enemies within, watching their empires fade inexorably.

They each have a religion that is now freaking out and changing habits due to the climate stress, hoping to placate the gods for mercy. Meanwhile each color has a new, previously innocuous or subjugated, creature race benefiting from the climate change and breeding heavily. Now each color fights within as much as against other opposing colors, and the fight is understood to be ultimately doomed.

It's an actual, honest to goodness, classical tragedy. Only within fighting can the actors find any semblance of hope, but the audience understands it can never be. Essentially it is the struggle for meaning in the face of extinction. Heavy shit for a CCG setting.